(September 12, 2021 at 7:08 pm)Ahriman Wrote: No one has an obligation to stop God's Plan from unfolding. It's not called God's Plan for nothing. It is not to be interfered with.
I'm sorry, didn't you say you were NOT a Christian? I only ask that because as far as I know, only two religions claim there's a special plan for everyone, Christianity and Islam. So, which one are you?
Quote:God's Plan is going to unfold, regardless of who agrees with it or not. Believe in the plan. You'll be happier.
And you are certain you know this plan and precisely how you fit into it? You can recognize when this plan is acting on your life and others? If someone appears to be rebelling against this plan, how do you know this isn't part of the plan?
Another way of saying what you said is this, whatever happens will happen no matter what and no one should bother to try and change their circumstances. Does this actually represent what you believe?
(September 12, 2021 at 7:07 pm)vulcanlogician Wrote: (September 12, 2021 at 6:57 pm)Spongebob Wrote: Its strange but I don't think religion, Christianity at least, looks at it this way, despite clear guidance from Jesus to do good in the world. Christians teach their children to do good and not to be dishonest but then they fall back on the "god's plan" thing whenever things go awry. I spent over 20 years in Christianity and the time spent discussing how we should treat other people was miniscule compared to the time spent instructing us to believe in Jesus, something we all already professed to do. It wasn't until I got out of the church that I explored real reasons for being an ethical person and the ramifications of an ethical vs unethical life.
You've just put into words an ineffable problem I've always had with Christianity. 90% of Christians I've met are totally apathetic about morality. They are much more concerned with the question: How can we portray ourselves as the most moral people? They are so single-mindedly concerned with that latter question they by default revoke their own status as people concerned with what is moral. There's no room for thinking about what is right when you are so single-mindedly concerned with who is right.
This is a direct result of the way people are indoctrinated. They are instructed, more times than one can count, that you must believe in Jesus, that you must follow his words (the Bible) and that you must submit your own desires to that of his. If a person truly believes this, it's an absolute wonder they bother to interact with the rest of the world at all. Fortunately, people only believe this to a degree. In their real, daily life, they revert to their family traditions. Manners, morals, ethics, behaviors. These are older than their religion and come from living among others so they have practical value.
The truth is, people do not truly submit to Jesus. They follow their own desires and convince themselves that this is what Jesus wants for them. They convince themselves that this is part of god's plan. It's a wholly self-centered lifestyle that is paradoxically supposed to be wholly selfless. In the rare cases where people actually do behave selflessly (it does happen occasionally), these people can become heroes or, just as often, considered dangerous. Two examples come to mind, WW2 soldiers who sacrificed their safety to save other men, and civil rights leaders. The soldiers are universally celebrated but the civil rights leaders like MLK and Fred Shuttlesworth were considered agitators and reviled by many, and don't tell me the many weren't regulars at church. In many ways, the civil rights leaders sacrificed much more than those soldiers. And believe it or not, those same attitudes still persist.
It's infuriating for non-theists because we see them behaving with morals when it suits them, but when it doesn't they feel free to break those morals because, it's god's plan. Sort of a get out of jail card.