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Where to go from here?
#21
RE: Where to go from here?
Nah......atheists definitely believe the universe came into existence from nothing, for no reason.
"Imagination, life is your creation"
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#22
RE: Where to go from here?
(November 18, 2021 at 6:27 pm)Ahriman Wrote: Nah......atheists definitely believe the universe came into existence from nothing, for no reason.

Atheists listen to cosmologists, so if you have a problem with cosmology talk to cosmologists and tell them where they are wrong.
teachings of the Bible are so muddled and self-contradictory that it was possible for Christians to happily burn heretics alive for five long centuries. It was even possible for the most venerated patriarchs of the Church, like St. Augustine and St. Thomas Aquinas, to conclude that heretics should be tortured (Augustine) or killed outright (Aquinas). Martin Luther and John Calvin advocated the wholesale murder of heretics, apostates, Jews, and witches. - Sam Harris, "Letter To A Christian Nation"
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#23
RE: Where to go from here?
(November 18, 2021 at 5:58 pm)Klorophyll Wrote: [quote='T.J.' pid='2076279' dateline='1637255563']
Where do you really go from here? 

Quote:You can't go anywhere because your position is irrational.

And yet, no theist has been able to demonstrate this.


(November 18, 2021 at 1:12 pm)T.J. Wrote:  I've come to the conclusion that there are no gods,

Quote:This is hard atheism, prove it. Prove that there are no gods. Good luck.

I actually agree. The claim that gods exist is an unfalsifiable claim. Not sure why one would want to take on the burden of proof, to claim that they don't exist, when it is not necessary.

(November 18, 2021 at 1:12 pm)T.J. Wrote: , no heaven, no hell, no afterlife

Quote:It doesn't follow from there being no god that there is no afterlife, it's extremely unlikely, though. 

Again, what a surprise, we agree.

Buddhism, for example, does not have any god beliefs, yet they have a belief in an afterlife.

(November 18, 2021 at 1:12 pm)T.J. Wrote: but it really messes with your head somewhat (at least I think so) after something you thought to be the truth for so long turns out to be a web of lies and that people you thought were real turns out to be fictional creations to support a religion that was bent on controlling the population with absurd laws and rules. 

Quote:What people turned out to be fictional creations.... according to you? Do you think that the historical Jesus or the historical Muhammad didn't exist.. for example? or simply that their disciples corrupted their teachings...? 

It is possible to believe they existed as historical people, and disbelieve in the mythical supernatural properties attributed to them.  

Quote:Some well known atheists converted back to theism, heavy hitters in the philosophy of religion like Antony Flew were convinced by theistic arguments. You, on the other hand, seem to be too certain about your position.

Anthony Flew, when his mind was obviously not at its peak, was convinced, for bad reasons (the flawed argument from design, your favorite). And he only became a deist, not a theist. He had no beliefs in any any ancient mythological texts.

(November 18, 2021 at 6:27 pm)Ahriman Wrote: Nah......atheists definitely believe the universe came into existence from nothing, for no reason.

Nope.

Do you ever get tired of being wrong?

The universe did not come from 'nothing', it came from 'everything'. It's just that it was in a different state before it began to expand at the Big Bang.

Our current presentation of the universe, is just different than what it was 'before' the BB.

You'd believe if you just opened your heart" is a terrible argument for religion. It's basically saying, "If you bias yourself enough, you can convince yourself that this is true." If religion were true, people wouldn't need faith to believe it -- it would be supported by good evidence.
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#24
RE: Where to go from here?
Sorry about the 'something from nothing' statement. I'm still learning. I'll respond to some other people a tad bit later.

(November 18, 2021 at 5:58 pm)Klorophyll Wrote:
(November 18, 2021 at 1:12 pm)T.J. Wrote: Where do you really go from here? 

You can't go anywhere because your position is irrational.

Irrational huh?

(November 18, 2021 at 1:12 pm)T.J. Wrote:
(November 18, 2021 at 5:58 pm)Klorophyll Wrote:  I've come to the conclusion that there are no gods,

This is hard atheism, prove it. Prove that there are no gods. Good luck.

Okay. If there's a god up there I think you can go suck a dick. Strike me dead!

Oh I'm still alive.

Seriously though, you can claim anything exists by stating there's no evidence to say that it doesn't. You prove that there is a god.

(November 18, 2021 at 1:12 pm)T.J. Wrote:
(November 18, 2021 at 5:58 pm)Klorophyll Wrote: but it really messes with your head somewhat (at least I think so) after something you thought to be the truth for so long turns out to be a web of lies and that people you thought were real turns out to be fictional creations to support a religion that was bent on controlling the population with absurd laws and rules. 

What people turned out to be fictional creations.... according to you? Do you think that the historical Jesus or the historical Muhammad didn't exist.. for example? or simply that their disciples corrupted their teachings...? 

A religion being involved in social life and/or exercising some form of social control has absolutely no bearing on its truth, this is the genetic fallacy.

I don't know for sure, but I'd like to see the evidence that they did exist. That any of them existed.

(November 18, 2021 at 1:12 pm)T.J. Wrote:
(November 18, 2021 at 5:58 pm)Klorophyll Wrote: Do I start studying up on science now? Research some well known atheists? Or just live content that something came from nothing and my destiny is whatever I make it?

Some well known atheists converted back to theism, heavy hitters in the philosophy of religion like Antony Flew were convinced by theistic arguments. You, on the other hand, seem to be too certain about your position.

It's part of being enlightened.
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#25
RE: Where to go from here?
(November 18, 2021 at 6:27 pm)Ahriman Wrote: Nah......atheists definitely believe the universe came into existence from nothing, for no reason.

 That is simply untrue.

Can it possibly be that after all this time you remain so ignorant over something so basic?  

One more time; an atheist is a person who does nor believe in god(s)  NOTHING ELSE IS IMPLIED OR MAY BE INFERRED.

Beliefs about the origin of the universe come under the headings of Cosmology and Physics. Nothing to do with atheism.

As well as being agnostic about god, I'm also agnostic about the creation of the universe. IE I cannot claim to know and so have no belief.

I'd really appreciate it if in future you would try to refrain from telling me what I do or do not believe, other than the existence of god(s) There's a good chap. Consoling
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#26
RE: Where to go from here?
(November 18, 2021 at 5:58 pm)Klorophyll Wrote: You, on the other hand, seem to be too certain about your position.

Says someone utterly certain about their position.
I'm not anti-Christian. I'm anti-stupid.
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#27
RE: Where to go from here?
(November 18, 2021 at 11:03 pm)Oldandeasilyconfused Wrote:
(November 18, 2021 at 6:27 pm)Ahriman Wrote: Nah......atheists definitely believe the universe came into existence from nothing, for no reason.

 That is simply untrue.

Can it possibly be that after all this time you remain so ignorant over something so basic?  

One more time; an atheist is a person who does nor believe in god(s)  NOTHING ELSE IS IMPLIED OR MAY BE INFERRED.

Beliefs about the origin of the universe come under the headings of Cosmology and Physics. Nothing to do with atheism.

As well as being agnostic about god, I'm also agnostic about the creation of the universe. IE I cannot claim to know and so have no belief.

I'd really appreciate it if in future you would try to refrain from telling me what I do or do not believe, other than the existence of god(s) There's a good chap. Consoling
You will never find an atheist who doesn't think the universe spontaneously came from nothing, and that all life is accidental. That's what atheists believe.
"Imagination, life is your creation"
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#28
RE: Where to go from here?
(November 19, 2021 at 3:37 pm)Ahriman Wrote:
(November 18, 2021 at 11:03 pm)Oldandeasilyconfused Wrote:  That is simply untrue.

Can it possibly be that after all this time you remain so ignorant over something so basic?  

One more time; an atheist is a person who does nor believe in god(s)  NOTHING ELSE IS IMPLIED OR MAY BE INFERRED.

Beliefs about the origin of the universe come under the headings of Cosmology and Physics. Nothing to do with atheism.

As well as being agnostic about god, I'm also agnostic about the creation of the universe. IE I cannot claim to know and so have no belief.

I'd really appreciate it if in future you would try to refrain from telling me what I do or do not believe, other than the existence of god(s) There's a good chap. Consoling
You will never find an atheist who doesn't think the universe spontaneously came from nothing, and that all life is accidental. That's what atheists believe.

You're an idiot. Keep believing things that aren't true. Maybe it'll pay off someday. Not here, mind you, but somewhere.



[Image: extraordinarywoo-sig.jpg]
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#29
RE: Where to go from here?
(November 19, 2021 at 3:37 pm)Ahriman Wrote:
(November 18, 2021 at 11:03 pm)Oldandeasilyconfused Wrote:  That is simply untrue.

Can it possibly be that after all this time you remain so ignorant over something so basic?  

One more time; an atheist is a person who does nor believe in god(s)  NOTHING ELSE IS IMPLIED OR MAY BE INFERRED.

Beliefs about the origin of the universe come under the headings of Cosmology and Physics. Nothing to do with atheism.

As well as being agnostic about god, I'm also agnostic about the creation of the universe. IE I cannot claim to know and so have no belief.

I'd really appreciate it if in future you would try to refrain from telling me what I do or do not believe, other than the existence of god(s) There's a good chap. Consoling
You will never find an atheist who doesn't think the universe spontaneously came from nothing, and that all life is accidental. That's what atheists believe.

You have no idea what I believe, you only know one thing that I don't believe
The meek shall inherit the Earth, the rest of us will fly to the stars.

Never underestimate the power of very stupid people in large groups

Arguing with an engineer is like wrestling with a pig in mud ..... after a while you realise that the pig likes it!

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#30
RE: Where to go from here?
(November 19, 2021 at 3:37 pm)Ahriman Wrote: You will never find an atheist who doesn't think the universe spontaneously came from nothing, and that all life is accidental. That's what atheists believe.

Charming. Simply charming.

*I* believe that there never was pure "nothing" at any point in the history of the universe and whatever may have preceded it. I believe that the subatomic building blocks of matter/energy have always existed in one form or another.

I also know enough about biology and chemistry to outright laugh at the idea of life being "accidental." Life is an aggregate of processes and structures based on very simple initial chemical compounds (e.g. water, ammonia, methane), which are based on very common elements (hydrogen, carbon, nitrogen, oxygen) that behave in predictable manners due to such factors as atomic valence. It's the very antithesis of "accidental."

Seriously, Ahriman, why do you lie about people? You can't read my mind. You don't know what I know or what I believe. With the two sentences you've posted above you have amply demonstrated to my satisfaction that you don't give a flying fuck about the truth. Grow up.
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