Is "Be the part of the change you want to see in the world!" bullshit?

[Ahriman]

How do you know that boycotting sweatshops is counter-productive? Do you have specific cases in mind?

Boycotts have sometimes been effective in pushing companies to change.

Yeah, sometimes. But mostly not. If someone offered you a bag of your favorite lollipops, but you had to punch yourself in the face for every lollipop that was in the bag, would you do it? No intelligent person would. It's just not worth it. In the same way, boycotts aren't worth it, because you're doing something very stupid in exchange for a reward that's not really worth it. So even if the boycott works, it still wasn't worth what you put into it.

And being an asshole, while truly knowing what to do, is absolutely better than being a more considerate person who doesn't know what to do.

[Belacqua]

How do you know that boycotting sweatshops is counter-productive? Do you have specific cases in mind?

Boycotts have sometimes been effective in pushing companies to change.

Yeah, sometimes. But mostly not. If someone offered you a bag of your favorite lollipops, but you had to punch yourself in the face for every lollipop that was in the bag, would you do it? No intelligent person would. It's just not worth it. In the same way, boycotts aren't worth it, because you're doing something very stupid in exchange for a reward that's not really worth it. So even if the boycott works, it still wasn't worth what you put into it.

Maybe we're talking about different kinds of boycotts here...

If enough people decided to stop buying Zara and H&M because of the social costs of fast fashion, that might push the companies to do better. Or at the least, if people talked about the boycott enough on social media it might make more people aware of what those costs are. 

But giving up Zara clothes isn't like punching yourself in the face. You're just shopping at a better store, or choosing to wear last year's fashion for another year or two. Not exactly a hardship.

And being an asshole, while truly knowing what to do, is absolutely better than being a more considerate person who doesn't know what to do.

I suspect that a person who actually knows how to be effective wouldn't have to be an asshole. 

But I find that I'm in the minority on this point. I've learned that lots of people think they are justified in being assholes a lot of the time.

[Ahriman]

I suspect that a person who actually knows how to be effective wouldn't have to be an asshole. 

But I find that I'm in the minority on this point. I've learned that lots of people think they are justified in being assholes a lot of the time.

Yes. And that's a problem. The only people who would actually make meaningful changes in this world, are all assholes. And assholes don't know how to be effective leaders. It's as if this world is specifically designed for the meaningless "rich good, poor bad" paradigm to be what everyone thinks is the truth.

[Ravenshire]

Yeah but, none of that stuff happened because of the social movements associated with them.

@Ahriman
Holy fuck, but you're thick. Having you on ignore helps, but I still have to deal with these nuggets of inanity getting quoted. Please do, as @arewethereyet has requested, shut the fuck up until you have something intelligent to say, which will functionally be, forever.

[Belacqua]

Yes. And that's a problem. The only people who would actually make meaningful changes in this world, are all assholes. And assholes don't know how to be effective leaders. It's as if this world is specifically designed for the meaningless "rich good, poor bad" paradigm to be what everyone thinks is the truth.

Yeah, as the man said: "The best lack all conviction, while the worst / Are full of passionate intensity." Same as it ever was.

If you study the social/political movements around the end of the 18th and beginning of the 19th centuries, it's very instructive. There was wonderful optimism in Europe after the French got rid of their king. They thought they could institute a government of Reason and bring in a golden age. But pretty soon it turned into a bloodbath that nobody wanted. Then they thought a new kind of king could make a difference, so they got Napoleon as king -- not chosen by heredity but, supposedly, by skill and merit. And of course they regretted that soon enough.

The history of Napoleon's men in Spain is a lot like that of the US in Iraq. When they first went in, the local intelligentsia hoped for the best. The old leadership was stale and superstitious, so they thought Reason would rule in a just and peaceful manner. And that optimism lasted about a week. Look at the new boss, same as the old boss. 

The smart people in England reacted in an interesting way. The ones who had been most optimistic (e.g. the Romantic poets) turned inward. They gave up on improvement through politics, and mostly decided that change can only occur on a personal level. We have little to no affect on the society around us, but we have a great deal of power to change ourselves. 

This is how I interpret the meaning of "Be the change you wish to see in the world." If you think the world is cruel and greedy, you have to make yourself as kind and generous as possible. If the world is evil, you make yourself good. And you do this knowing it will have no impact on society at all. 

[Ahriman]

Yeah but, none of that stuff happened because of the social movements associated with them.

@Ahriman
Holy fuck, but you're thick. Having you on ignore helps, but I still have to deal with these nuggets of inanity getting quoted. Please do, as @arewethereyet has requested, shut the fuck up until you have something intelligent to say, which will functionally be, forever.

The powers that be made all of the legal decisions that made civil rights, abolition, women's right to vote, and all that other stuff, into reality. It had nothing to do with any kind of social movement.

[Angrboda]

[Ahriman]

Yes. And that's a problem. The only people who would actually make meaningful changes in this world, are all assholes. And assholes don't know how to be effective leaders. It's as if this world is specifically designed for the meaningless "rich good, poor bad" paradigm to be what everyone thinks is the truth.

They gave up on improvement through politics, and mostly decided that change can only occur on a personal level. We have little to no affect on the society around us, but we have a great deal of power to change ourselves. 

This is how I interpret the meaning of "Be the change you wish to see in the world." If you think the world is cruel and greedy, you have to make yourself as kind and generous as possible. If the world is evil, you make yourself good. And you do this knowing it will have no impact on society at all. 

Lol, Jesus Christ that's sad. The ultimate cope.

[Ravenshire]

@Ahriman
What part of "you're on ignore" are you too fucking stupid to understand?!?

Don't bother. I already know... All of it.

[Jackalope]

This is how I interpret the meaning of "Be the change you wish to see in the world." If you think the world is cruel and greedy, you have to make yourself as kind and generous as possible. If the world is evil, you make yourself good. And you do this knowing it will have no impact on society at all. 

I would agree with this, though I also recognize that leading by example is a thing, and that others might follow - though I have no expectation that they will.