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Moral Psychology
#1
Moral Psychology
Seeing as I've had a recent shift in moral thinking due to gaining some new understanding I find that metaethics and moral psychology are once again at the forefront of my attention, as such I thought I'd provide some of the most fascinating results of psychological studies...

Strangely enough, I think some of these "moral quirks" could be used as pretty effective evidence against the existence of a God, or at least against a competent God.

1. people were asked to choose one of several panty-hose displayed in a row. When asked to explain their preferences, people gave sensible enough answers, referring to the relevant features of the items chosen—superior knit, sheerness, elasticity, etc. But their choices had nothing to do with such features, as the items on display were in fact identical. People simply had a preference for items on the right side of the display (Nisbett and Wilson, 1977).

2. Whether we judge an action as 'intentional' or not often depends on the judged goodness or badness of the action, not the internal states of the agent. This is known as the Knobe effect, for example: A businessman is holding a board meeting, he is out to make as much money as possible, his adviser says to him "Plan X will create maximum profits but will also harm the environment" the businessman says "Sure go ahead, I don't care about the environment I just want to make as much money as possible" - When asked whether or not he intentionally harmed the environment 90% of people said "Yes, he did intentionally harm the environment" - However, when the situation was turned on it's head and the adviser said "Plan x will create maximum profits and will also help the environment" only 30% of people said "Yes, he intentionally helped the environment"

3. Our moral judgments are significantly affected by whether we are in the presence of freshly baked bread or a low concentration of fart spray that only the subconscious mind can detect.9

4. The likelihood of a parole board to grant parole to an inmate varies as much as 60% consistently, based on the length of time since their last lunch break. This means that the relationship of the hearing relative to their last break has a more significant impact than the behaviors or crimes of the inmate.

5. Magnets being placed over different sections of the brain affect our moral judgements.

6. People tend to insist that certain things are right or wrong even when a hypothetical situation is constructed that they admit they can give no reason for their judgment

And perhaps the most stunning:

7. Decisions about 'moral rules' (deontology) and consequences or maximum good (utilitarianism) are produced by entirely different portions of our brains, the former from our "chimp brains" and the latter by our more recently evolved neo-cortex. We have not one, but two conflicting moral systems.

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#2
RE: Moral Psychology
"3. Our moral judgments are significantly affected by whether we are in the presence of freshly baked bread or a low concentration of fart spray that only the subconscious mind can detect."

Hahaha! Big Grin

Interesting stuff tho'. Although I read these sceptically as quack : too directed micro observations that have little or no bearing on reality as the big picture.
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#3
RE: Moral Psychology
I'm with fr0d0 here...

Are you certain these are true? They all seem ridiculous to me.
Please give me a home where cloud buffalo roam
Where the dear and the strangers can play
Where sometimes is heard a discouraging word
But the skies are not stormy all day
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#4
RE: Moral Psychology
Quote:5. Magnets being placed over different sections of the brain affect our moral judgements.

So can the strength of the earth's magnetic field have an effect on moral judgements as well? And could that even be one of the factors for religious moral beliefs in the past? Or was it God's way of controlling their minds?
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#5
RE: Moral Psychology
My chimp brain just told my neo-cortex to fuck off
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#6
RE: Moral Psychology
(April 25, 2011 at 2:09 pm)theVOID Wrote: Seeing as I've had a recent shift in moral thinking due to gaining some new understanding I find that metaethics and moral psychology are once again at the forefront of my attention, as such I thought I'd provide some of the most fascinating results of psychological studies...

Strangely enough, I think some of these "moral quirks" could be used as pretty effective evidence against the existence of a God, or at least against a competent God.
Interesting! I'm intrigued as to how you might go about formulating atheistic arguments from these.
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#7
RE: Moral Psychology
(April 25, 2011 at 3:41 pm)Aerzia Saerules Arktuos Wrote: I'm with fr0d0 here...

Are you certain these are true? They all seem ridiculous to me.

True in the scientific sense yeah, and certainly absurd, that's the point Big Grin Stuff like this is emerging constantly in neuroscience, our picture of our own subjective experience is far far different from what our introspection reveals to us.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joshua_Knob...obe_Effect

http://commonsenseatheism.com/wp-content...dgment.pdf

http://commonsenseatheism.com/wp-content...dgment.pdf

http://awaisaftab.blogspot.com/2011/03/m...nding.html

http://www.fed.cuhk.edu.hk/~lchang/mater...ntSoul.pdf

(April 25, 2011 at 3:52 pm)Rayaan Wrote:
Quote:5. Magnets being placed over different sections of the brain affect our moral judgements.

So can the strength of the earth's magnetic field have an effect on moral judgements as well? And could that even be one of the factors for religious moral beliefs in the past? Or was it God's way of controlling their minds?

No, it's far far too weak Big Grin As far as I know anyway.
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#8
RE: Moral Psychology
Quote:4. The likelihood of a parole board to grant parole to an inmate varies as much as 60% consistently, based on the length of time since their last lunch break. This means that the relationship of the hearing relative to their last break has a more significant impact than the behaviors or crimes of the inmate.

That principle is well know by lawyers, of Judges. It's called 'the bacon and egg rule' and refers to what kind of breakfast a judge had.

I'm not sure I understand your full post.. I accept that psychological egoism is the the basis of morality. You also seem to be taking a determinist line and denying rational thinking as a significant agent in decision making (?)

If so,I agree. My perception is that in reality, human beings are self deluding animals. We are incapable of consistent rational thought. What we call free will is mostly (or entirely) an illusion. Our actions are predetermined by experience,genetic inheritance and hard wired instinct.

BUT I FEEL and believe on a visceral level that I have free will and I FEEL as if I'm being rational,say as I write this. In any practical sense,both beliefs are true for me. Does that make any sense at all?>
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#9
RE: Moral Psychology
(April 25, 2011 at 10:26 pm)padraic Wrote: That principle is well know by lawyers, of Judges. It's called 'the bacon and egg rule' and refers to what kind of breakfast a judge had.

It's similar sure, but nowhere near as much of a problem in that situation as a Judge largely has established legal precedent to work from where as a parole boards has guidelines but a large portion of their decision is entirely based on their own subjective value determinations and moral judgements.

I'm for using Statistical Prediction Rules (SPRs) rather than parole boards, their efficacy in determining what people to give parole to is much better than parole boards.

Quote:I'm not sure I understand your full post.. I accept that psychological egoism is the the basis of morality.

I was just listing some of the most non-intuitive scientific findings regarding how our moral judgements operate.

The basis of morality? No. It has a contribution to our individual values but morality is an evaluation of conflicting values, our own moral judgements are a product of our values, but a metaethical framework doesn't depend on them.

Quote:You also seem to be taking a determinist line and denying rational thinking as a significant agent in decision making (?)

There is nothing about determinism that denies deliberation (which aren't necessarily rational) as a significant factor in our Utilitarian/Consequentialst judgements, but it has less to do with our reactionary and more "absolute" deontological judgements.

On the contrary, determinism makes morality possible, in a deterministic universe we can use our moral tools of praise and condemnation to influence the desires and beliefs a person has so their values are less likely to be conflicting, unlike an in-determinist universe where our praise and condemnation has no means by which to effect the ethereal "self" (or sould) that non-naturalists claim is responsible for our moral judgements.

Quote:If so,I agree. My perception is that in reality, human beings are self deluding animals. We are incapable of consistent rational thought. What we call free will is mostly (or entirely) an illusion. Our actions are predetermined by experience,genetic inheritance and hard wired instinct.

Yeah I agree with most of that, and I reject free will outright, I don't consider Compatiblism to be anything more than a way of appealing to proponents of "free will" who are scared by the thought of determinism, deliberation in a deterministic universe is all we need.

We aren't so much "self deluding" as it is a case of our brain being a flawed lens through which we see the world, we have evolved quirks that contribute to our perception. Luckily our brain is, as Eliezer Yudkowsky puts it, a flawed lens than can see it's flaws.

Quote:BUT I FEEL and believe on a visceral level that I have free will and I FEEL as if I'm being rational,say as I write this. In any practical sense,both beliefs are true for me. Does that make any sense at all?>

I get where you're coming from because I once thought the same, but once I got to understand more of our brains functionality I no longer feel as if I have free will, I feel like a fully caused being with the ability to deliberate prior to action - It feels exactly the same as when I thought I had free will, but what I feel isn't free will, and knowing that I can't rightly say that what I feel is that I have free will.

Rationality is an entirely different ballpark, we are often but not always rational, the key to becoming more rational is in my view taking into account the flaws of our lens (our biases, intuitions etc) and compensating for them, using what we know objectively about the function of our brain from cognitive sciences as a corrective measure.

Using language in a way that another person can comprehend is, for instance, by it's very nature a rational activity.
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#10
RE: Moral Psychology
(April 25, 2011 at 2:09 pm)theVOID Wrote: 6. People tend to insist that certain things are right or wrong even when a hypothetical situation is constructed that they admit they can give no reason for their judgment

People seem to do this one alot.
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