How it is Supposed to Work

[The Grand Nudger]

One all on it's own. The best thing that's ever happened to theistic religion has been the fall of theistic religion. Far more secular and skeptical people have reinterpreted these beliefs in a way that may be their closest approach to decency and wit...and in the process...convinced just about everyone else that what they always were, or were always meant to be that way. Nonsense. Disbelief has improved belief and this is the best it gets.

[Paleophyte]

The reason why I say this is that religion is not “evil” in itself.

You can't have religion without people, so there's no such thing as religion "in itself."

In most cases it is seen as something “good” that you want to teach your children before they get to puberty if you can.

When I see, for instance, an adult encouraging some younger kid to come to the Friday prayer if possible, I don’t see an act of evil. I think it’s a good thing if parents do their bests to come to the church etc. especially when they are small children.

Let's give that the sniff test. I'm going to take some curly-haired tots and instruct them on the wonders of the Vedas. You think that their parents will be cool with that? Or are we going to have a lot of shrieking about indoctrination and abuse the instant that it turns out we're spoon-feeding the kids bullshit of a very slightly different flavour?

[BrianSoddingBoru4]

^’Very slightly different flavour’ nails it perfectly, I think. All religions, without exception, are rooted in othering, and I can’t imagine a situation in which othering is anything less that dehumanizing and evil.

Good people are good people in spite of their religion, not because of it.

Boru

[The Grand Nudger]

Wicca is a candidate for exception, showing that religions didn't have to be about othering, that's a choice that abrahamic monotheists made and continue to make. If we wanted to insist that othering occurs in wicca we would have to acknowledge that wiccans other themselves in order to empower marginalized identities. Polytheism..while ridiculous and often downright unwell in it's own right, actually has that as a broad trait distinguishing it from monotheism. Probably bound up in the psychology of the whole thing..where...when you can conceive of more than one divine authority or guarantor, it's difficult to insist that such things are or should be singular in the mundane world.

Not just a contemporary pagan thing either. Pre-christian romes idea of how to deal with christianity was to put up a statue of the new christian god in their temples. They offered community and inclusion. The christians spat on it while engaging in a street war with jews as they vandalized and desecrated pagan religious objects and sites. A trend that would continue for centuries. Muslims haven't been slouches on that count either.

[Angrboda]

Wicca is a candidate for exception, showing that religions didn't have to be about othering, that's a choice that abrahamic monotheists made and continue to make.  If we wanted to insist that othering occurs in wicca we would have to acknowledge that wiccans other themselves in order to empower marginalized identities.  Polytheism..while ridiculous and often downright unwell in it's own right, actually has that as a broad trait distinguishing it from monotheism.  Probably bound up in the psychology of the whole thing..where...when you can conceive of more than one divine authority or guarantor, it's difficult to insist that such things are or should be singular in the mundane world.

Not just a contemporary pagan thing either.  Pre-christian romes idea of how to deal with christianity was to put up a statue of the new christian god in their temples.

Wicca has a tendency toward "paranoiaizing" reality. Wiccans spells are fundamentally about controlling their environment with the result being an adversarial mindset.

On the outside of Wicca, witchcraft has often served as an excuse for persecuting minorities and disfavored groups, thus an us v. them dynamic results from outside pressures.

[Leonardo17]

BrianSoddingBoru:
 

“Did you miss all that recent fun in Belfast? In case you did, a Muslim lunatic brutally injured an innocent man in a knife attack. The response of those good Northern Irish Christians was  to attack innocent Muslims, with good Christians of the US and the rest of the UK cheering them on.
 
Putin has described his illegal attack on Ukraine as a ‘holy crusade.’
 
Do yourself a favour and look up The Lord’s Resistance Army.
 
Israel is currently conducting religious genocide on two fronts that has overwhelming support among Christians throughout the Middle East.
 
So, before you make the absurd and unsupportable statement that Christian holy wars died out centuries ago, be more aware of what’s going on in the world right now.”

 
- Yes that’s what I am talking about since my first post in this thread. There are indeed very absurd ways of understanding religion as a whole. This “Lord’s resistance army” has child soldiers and even sex slaves in it. A typical African Man-animal organization. What’s the difference with Al-Shabab or Hamas? If they have a religion it has to be the same religion right?

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/What I meant here is that they have Jesuit schools with corporal punishment in France. If you have a kid who his lazy by nature, or even homosexual, you can sent him there and they will make a lawyer or an engineer or something like that out of him. That’s how strictly religious the whole institution is.

   In Portugal they still have “Knight Templars”. It’s a social order doing social and charity works. But again, they have no prospect of reconquering holy lands or anything like that.

    Let me remind you that there was the “Reconquista” in the Iberian Peninsula. All Muslims and Jews were given a choice between converting to Christianity of fleeing or dying. In 1585 King Philip of Spain launched a 130 ship Armada on England to reconvert Elizabeth back to Catholicism.

   The US in that time started to become full of people fleeing religious wars and religious percussions.
   SO the overall Christian mentality has still evolved a lot from the 18th century until now.

   The Muslim mentality on the other hand, regressed for some reason. When Granada fell in 1492, The Ottoman Emperor Bayezid II sent ships to rescues the Jews and Muslim populations of Spain. Without expecting anything in return. In that time Constantinople was already a place where different Abrahamic religions existed together in a peaceful manner. Now look at what’s happening in October 2023. “Muslims” murdering kids partying in the desert?

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   But you are right. This level of fanaticism isn’t even compatible with the idea of “holy war” if you ask me. This is probably what Norseman described as the Ragnarök. It cannot be anything else
 
Paleophyte:
 
- As I said, I grew up meeting a lot of people with different spiritual approaches. Maybe I was just lucky. But in our time, most parents will see it as a good thing. The youth has become too materialistic, too much under the influence of the dominating superficial consumerist values. So I am thinking as a generation X here. My answer to that question is yes. What’s wrong with a kid having spiritual aspirations of some sort?
 
But again: If it’s Islam (and even as a culturally Muslim person) you have to double check and be sure that it’s not one of the Pedophile – warlord versions of Islam.
 
These guys are out there. Especially on social Media etc.
 
So having a kid with some level of spiritual education also guarantees they will be less likely to follow one of the so many commercialized forms of religious cocktails that are out there, all of them designed to extract money and resources from affluent people with little ability to think critically.
 
All of these are real and true. But not all religious faith is predestined to be either one or the other type of superficial belief systems that I have mentioned above. There can also be moderate and quite logical approaches to religious practice in general.
 
Brian Sodding Boru:
 

“^’Very slightly different flavour’ nails it perfectly, I think. All religions, without exception, are rooted in othering, and I can’t imagine a situation in which othering is anything less that dehumanizing and evil.
 
Good people are good people in spite of their religion, not because of it.”

 
- Again: Yes, but this has to change (and it is actually changing). I am seeing a shift from all these identity based / highly dogmatic approach to a more inner-energy oriented and less superficial approach.
 
That’s because the first approach is becoming increasingly untenable. Seriously: The more traditional approach to Islam is simply exhausting. You have probably had similar approaches with Christianity. It’s either that or you have to be one of these very simple-minded men or women who can carry on with everything just the way it is.
 
    Otherwise, there isn’t even any personal involvement in it anymore. Just some dogmas and some passively acted rituals as if God was a cosmic persona who needed us to perform these rituals… And there is the political aspect. And also all the negative social consequences.
 
/ That’s not what I am talking about here. You must have understood this by now
 
Grandnudger:
 

“Wicca is a candidate for exception, showing that religions didn't have to be about othering, that's a choice that abrahamic monotheists made and continue to make. If we wanted to insist that othering occurs in wicca we would have to acknowledge that wiccans other themselves in order to empower marginalized identities. Polytheism..while ridiculous and often downright unwell in it's own right, actually has that as a broad trait distinguishing it from monotheism. Probably bound up in the psychology of the whole thing..where...when you can conceive of more than one divine authority or guarantor, it's difficult to insist that such things are or should be singular in the mundane world.
 
Not just a contemporary pagan thing either. Pre-christian romes idea of how to deal with Christianity was to put up a statue of the new Christian god in their temples. They offered community and inclusion. The christians spat on it while engaging in a street war with jews as they vandalized and desecrated pagan religious objects and sites. A trend that would continue for centuries. Muslims haven't been slouches on that count either.”

 
Just one short comment on that: I like how ancient religions threat our planet. I like how they see the earth as a “mother” of some sort and emphasize our duty to respect this “mother” and all that lives in this nature as our brothers and sisters.
 
The Abrahamic approach on that issue is simply barbaric. Just “enslave the earth, marry and reproduce and take everything you want from this earth for it has been given to you by God”.
- I don’t agree with that.
 
And again: Revivalism (according to me) is happening because of the robot-like codification of Abrahamic religions. It’s a sad fact, but there is really few spiritual element left inside churches and inside mosques. The only thing is that the West knows this already (so they are turning ancient church buildings into other types of buildings but the backward East who is too busy fighting Israel and fighting one-another hasn’t noticed it yet.
 
That’s how I see it
 
Agrboda:
 

“Wicca has a tendency toward "paranoiaizing" reality. Wiccans spells are fundamentally about controlling their environment with the result being an adversarial mindset.
 
On the outside of Wicca, witchcraft has often served as an excuse for persecuting minorities and disfavored groups, thus an us v. them dynamic results from outside pressures.”

 
…and spirituality is different from the occult. Most spiritual people are either directly scared of occult practices. Or (as it is my case) will dismiss it as something that is completely irrevelent to you spiritual growth and progress.

[BrianSoddingBoru4]

@Leonardo17

   But you are right. This level of fanaticism isn’t even compatible with the idea of “holy war” if you ask me.  

You may have misunderstood me, because that’s not what I said or implied at all. The examples of fanaticism I mention are not merely compatible with the idea of holy war, they are perfect examples of holy war. But at least they’re out in the open. Far more insidious are the legislative holy wars being waged by governments.

This is probably what Norseman described as the Ragnarök. It cannot be anything else

It is absolutely nothing like Ragnarok.

Boru

[awty]

All those smiley faces don't make things correct. In fact, they make the wall of text look more ridiculous.

[BrianSoddingBoru4]

@Leonardo17

Most spiritual people are either directly scared of occult practices. Or (as it is my case) will dismiss it as something that is completely irrevelent to you spiritual growth and progress.

While not all spiritual practices are occult, all occult practices are spiritual. Don’t be too quick to dismiss the occult - it’s practically a first cousin to spirituality.

Boru

[Leonardo17]

BrianSoddingBoru:
 
- All the things I am saying about Islam works for religion in general. It also works on evangelical Christians in a way:
 

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https://www.texastribune.org/2025/05/24/...e-bill-10/
 
- The word “God” is not mentioned in the US constitution. The US is a state that does not have a religion. Therefore US schools cannot teach children about the 10 commandments or anything else.
 
So this is something I can totally relate to. It’s also happening in Eastern Europe. It’s also happening here. This is not a crusade but there are people in the US who believe that their country should be a “Christian” country. You all probably know more about these evangelical approaches much better than I do.
 
- So all that I say applies to these guys too. Spirituality is an extremely personal and individual matter. All of its mechanisms are located inside of us not outside. So personally: I think I would be very angry with this 2025 law that was adopted in Texas. And even from here: I am not OK with the cancelation of the Roe v. Wade Law in 2022.
 
What I am saying is that you have to watch out for these guys. For me these are forms of organized evil. A group of people uniting and conspiring as a group to dictate what they see as right to the rest of the population or to the rest of the world. That’s exactly the way the Mullah’s of Iran are organizing.
 
My idea on that is that there should not be any “cosa nostra” style religious (or spiritual) organizations who are making decisions for all of us behind closed doors. I think it’s extremely arrogant for a group of indoctrinated people to even decide that their path is simply the true path and that everybody has to accept this one way or the other. Emperors of the past did not have that kind of authority if you see what I mean.
 

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So that’s what I am referring to as Ragnarök. I think it is possible that the Saga’s were referring to our present time with all those frost giants attacking Asgard and killing the Gods one by one. To me it represents all those circle of power working for the interest or accordingly with the convictions of a limited number of people who are destroying all that is important to the common good one strike after another. (The Gods representing all the positive forces who are keeping our world together in one piece).