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**Darwinian** · May 13, 2011 at 11:36 am

Moment

–noun - an indefinitely short period of time;

If a being exists outside of time then the concept of a moment makes no sense. Neither I might add does the concept of existence.

**Napoléon** · (This post was last modified: May 13, 2011 at 11:38 am by Napoléon.)

(May 13, 2011 at 11:31 am)fr0d0 Wrote: 1. Predetermination: If an entity existed outside of time... all of time would be as one moment to them... there are never 'before or after'. To them, everything you do is already known. That they know that has no impact on your freedom to make the choices that you make.

2. Free Will: You as a biological machine do whatever that biological machine is led to do. You can't do otherwise. The choices you make are choices you would always make. Even if you choose to do the opposite.

You are a free agent to make whatever choices you want, or as dictated by you as the biological machine.

Hmmm interesting.

"If an entity existed outside of time... all of time would be as one moment to them... there are never 'before or after'"
This makes no sense to me whatsoever. In order for something to 'exist' there has to be time. Something existing outside of time just seems illogical to me.
But if it's what you like to think then right on!

Watson · May 13, 2011 at 12:02 pm

(May 12, 2011 at 9:05 pm)darkblight Wrote:

(May 5, 2011 at 6:27 pm)Watson Wrote:
(May 5, 2011 at 6:19 pm)Rwandrall Wrote: How can any Christian not go completely mentally insane about the idea that most people they see every day are going to burn forever in agonizing pain...the guy you pass on the bus, the co-worker who you talk about sports with...

How can you be okay with anyone not sharing your beliefs ? How can you have someone you love not believing in God and not do every single thing you can to convert them ?
It fills me with profound sadness every day.

Ultimately faith is a choice that we must all make. Belief is a personal thing, and though I may do everything in my power to help loved ones see what I see, in the end it is their choice to make and not mine. I must accept that I can do no more than support and love them as they make their choices in life, whether they be good or bad ones.

get off your high horse

You first. Big Grin

~~fr0d0~~ · (This post was last modified: May 13, 2011 at 2:38 pm by fr0d0.)

(May 13, 2011 at 11:36 am)oggtheclever Wrote: Moment

–noun - an indefinitely short period of time;

If a being exists outside of time then the concept of a moment makes no sense. Neither I might add does the concept of existence.

I didn't say that it was a moment, but that it would be "like a moment" - ie instantaneous. So that fails.

~~fr0d0~~ · (This post was last modified: May 13, 2011 at 2:43 pm by fr0d0.)

(May 13, 2011 at 11:37 am)Napoleon666 Wrote: "If an entity existed outside of time... all of time would be as one moment to them... there are never 'before or after'"
This makes no sense to me whatsoever. In order for something to 'exist' there has to be time. Something existing outside of time just seems illogical to me.

Not illogical, just atemporal. We're not talking about our perspective of time. This entity is defined as not being constrained within that, so you can't say it's illogical on those grounds.

**Napoléon** · May 13, 2011 at 2:43 pm

(May 13, 2011 at 12:21 pm)fr0d0 Wrote:
(May 13, 2011 at 11:36 am)oggtheclever Wrote: Moment

–noun - an indefinitely short period of time;

If a being exists outside of time then the concept of a moment makes no sense. Neither I might add does the concept of existence.
I didn't say that it was a moment, but that it would be "like a moment" - ie instantaneous. So that fails.

Nah frodo you fail, how can it be anything "like a moment" if time does not exist.

downbeatplumb · May 13, 2011 at 2:51 pm

I think he might be suggestng that god experiences all time at once like dr mahattan.

Quote:Dr Manhattan's unusual hyperconsciousness allows him to perceive time in multiple facets. He slides through time and has a keen sense of predestination. For him, all time is simultaneous; all things happen at once. Therefore, he knows what "will" happen in "the future" but is incapable of doing anything about it. An obviously complex, distant, otherworldly character, Manhattan is ageless and indestructible but poignantly paradoxical in his fatalistic yet omnipotent existence.

God wishes he was dr manhattan.

~~fr0d0~~ · May 13, 2011 at 2:53 pm

(May 13, 2011 at 2:43 pm)Napoleon666 Wrote: Nah frodo you fail, how can it be anything "like a moment" if time does not exist.

Did anyone say time didn't exist???

**Napoléon** · (This post was last modified: May 13, 2011 at 3:06 pm by Napoléon.)

(May 13, 2011 at 2:53 pm)fr0d0 Wrote:
(May 13, 2011 at 2:43 pm)Napoleon666 Wrote: Nah frodo you fail, how can it be anything "like a moment" if time does not exist.
Did anyone say time didn't exist???

You said that god exists outside of time. If that's the case then god itself would not be bound by the laws of time, nor be experiencing anything like time. Therefore saying that such a god can experience something "like a moment" is completely illogical because it's impossible if it is not bound by time itself.

Put simply nothing can exist outside of time, because time in essence is simply a way of ordering the series of events from one to the other which makes up the fabric of our universe.

What you are speculating on is outside of the laws of our universe, so saying that your god will experience a notion ("like a moment") that is absolutely necessary to the laws which make up our universe, is completely illogical, because a god would have no concept of time or anything like it if it did not exist within time.

~~fr0d0~~ · May 13, 2011 at 4:28 pm

I was talking about an hypothetical entity nappy & not God. Your logical fail is in assuming 'not constrained by time' should = separate from temporal space. Clearly when I suggested this (atemporal) entity knew everything (temporal) you do at once I was suggesting that the two zones interacted.

Mind blowing principle but hardly new. Ancient middle easterners clearly understood it too.

When you start to address God you're not talking about physics (this universe) but metaphysics (not bound by the laws of this universe).

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