The Muslim Jesus

[DeistPaladin]

I find the paradox of the Muslim beliefs about Jesus to be as much confusing as intriguing. They seem to have a love-hate relationship with the Bible, considering it a corrupted book that got it all wrong and yet it's their only detailed source of information about Jesus, one which they actually quote when it suits them. I'm wondering if any Muslims here could clear this up.

Here are some sections of a recent post that caught my curiosity (bold emphasis mine):

I cant see how anyone could possibly question Jesus’s existence, the bibles, the millions of books that were written, the records that were kept still remain to this day, just not the their original format.

It’s a well known fact that when the romans adopted Christianity in order to make it their own, they re-wrote the bible, added a lot of fantasy and metaphorical ideas which later people started taking as literal meanings ie son of god, died for our sins, the trinity etc.

They collected and burned the original aromaic bibles, and possession was punishable by death. Segments of some of these earlier bibles have been recovered but they are never properly translated or published since it clashes greatly with modern Christianity.

Different Muslims that I've talked to seem to have similar ideas about the early history of Christianity. The idea is that Islam hearkens back to a more pure form of Jesus' teachings, one consistent with their own beliefs. Protestant Christians make very similar claims, so it's not hard for me to get the idea. Old religions have the luxury of appealing to the authority of antiquity, being the established church. New religions usually take the tactic of claiming not to rebel against that authority but rather appealing to some idea of a pure, simple original teaching that's been corrupted by the old. This is the approach Muhammad seems to have taken with his ideas about Jesus.

The problem with the Muslim variation on this strategy is it seems to undermine its own claims. Muhammad's only source of information came from the very people he claims got it all wrong. Muslims sometimes quote the Bible but say it's been corrupted (much like the bold sections of the post above). If it's been corrupted, than how can we know anything about Jesus?

The post cited above is filled with conspiracy theories about how the true teachings of Jesus were suppressed by the emergent Catholic Church. Then how do we know what they really were? And if God told Muhammad the truth about Jesus, why not also tell the Christians and save both sides form 1500 years of needless bloodshed?

While the Protestant dreamscape regarding an earlier, purer form of Christianity are the stuff of fantasy, at least they have some scriptural basis for their claims. The truth is that there were many Christianities during the first few centuries prior to Nicaea (and some centuries thereafter). They varied so wildly as to make the distinctions between Islam and modern Christianity look like petty hair-splitting. However, none of the versions I know of would be consistent with Islam nor did they expect a future prophet like Muhammad. What, if anything, is the Islamic dreamscape about the early teachings of Jesus based on?

[Minimalist]

They seem to have a love-hate relationship with the Bible,

Perhaps they will throw rocks at it?

[ruhollah]

I find the paradox of the Muslim beliefs about Jesus to be as much confusing as intriguing. They seem to have a love-hate relationship with the Bible, considering it a corrupted book that got it all wrong and yet it's their only detailed source of information about Jesus, one which they actually quote when it suits them. I'm wondering if any Muslims here could clear this up.

I think this will help: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bbhdUheiVBE

I haven't watched it myself, but I heard it gives a good overview.

[DeistPaladin]

The movie you reference says nothing about where Muslims get their information, if not from the Bible. Also, according to this "documentary", Pilate had to deal with Jesus almost immediately after his arrival in 27 AD. This doesn't fit with the claimed 30 AD date in the movie.

My "Jesus Timeline" details the problems of making the Jesus story fit with history.

[alemcodon]

Hey Mr Paladin...

ALLEGEDLY..muhammed was quoted the quraan from the angel gabrial, he quoted what he was told to somebody else and somebody else wrote it down on cloths and camels backsides or whatever...maybe some paper as well.

Muhammeds source of info wasnt the bible or the poeple that got it wrong, obviously you wouldnt believe that the quraan is gods words directly (via an angel) but there are many diffrences between the stories told.

we dont beleive in the ressurection, or the son of god thing, we dont believe he died for our sins.

In the quraan it says jesus was taken alive to the heavens and replaced with someone that looked like him, and thats the reason why he must return, since one of gods laws is that whoever is born of the earth (ie pyhsical matter) must die and be buried on earth.

And that is one of the main reasons why he must return to earth, so he can die and be buried here. From a scientific perspective, the atoms we are made from have been circulating through various forms of life for millions if not billoins of years, and the matter that earth possesses is unique compared to other planets (diversity) - hence it does kinda make sense why he must come back to die and get buried on earth.

Other than that there many diffrences in the stories of the prophets, some minor details some major...ill try to remember some examples if i can....

ie in moses quraan version ramses drowned in the red sea...
not sure about christian version but jewish version says he didnt....the resting place of noahs arc is diffrent, the location of mount sinai is diffrent (logical since if you cross the red sea, your no where near mnt sinai of today).

sheiBe my memories gone blank, but theres a book called story of the prophets (should be online) written by ibn khatir, it was written about 800yrs ago, and give stories of all major prophets, and the varying accounts in diffrent scriptures, jewish, christian and islamic version.

If you cant find and want a copy ill send it ya - holla me.

And if God told Muhammad the truth about Jesus, why not also tell the Christians and save both sides form 1500 years of needless bloodshed?

Dont forget jesus didnt live in rome, or england, or the US of A....he lived in palestine, and arabia/muhammed isnt that far off, arabs, jews and early chrisitians were semitic bloodline, the arabs descended from abraham as did the jews.

The message of the quraan was aimed at all of mankind, especially poeple of the book (ie christians and jews) and many of the early converts were chrisitian, medina was a christian city that eventually almost fully converted after allowing only a handfull of muslims as asylum seekers.
hence the chrisitians that accepted the message became muslim, same as how jesus' message was for the jews, but most rejected him - so they styaed as jews, the message did reach them, but they chose not to listen.

Similar with what happened to muhammed, the message did get there, to the chrisitians, the ones that didnt accept (the european chrisitians) stayed as christians, the semitic chrisitians who did accept are now muslims, you can find these guys in palestine, not manchester or washington.

Saying that the quraan doesnt say christianity is wrong, some of their beliefs are misguided but...quraan doesnt say their wrong, or their prayers are not counted, in fact quite the opposite...even atheists and pagans who dont make war and help poeple are highyl regarded in islam. (poeple like napolean wont wanna tell you that).

Not all of them are alike: Of the PEOPLE OF THE BOOK are a portion that stand (For the right): They rehearse the Signs of God all night long, and they prostrate themselves in adoration.
( Chapter #3, Verse #113)

And there are, certainly, among the PEOPLE OF THE BOOK, those who believe in God, in the revelation to you, and in the revelation to them, bowing in humility to God. They will not sell the Signs of God for a miserable gain! For them is a reward with their Lord, and God is swift in account.
( Chapter #3, Verse #199)

2:256. Let there be no compulsion in religion: Truth stands out clear from Error: whoever rejects evil and believes in God hath grasped the most trustworthy hand-hold, that never breaks. And God heareth and knoweth all things.

8: 72. Those who believed, and adopted exile, and fought for the Faith, with their property and their persons, in the cause of God, as well as those who gave (them) asylum and aid,- these are (all) friends and protectors, one of another. As to those who believed but came not into exile, ye owe no duty of protection to them until they come into exile; but if they seek your aid in religion, it is your duty to help them, except against a people with whom ye have a treaty of mutual alliance. And (remember) God seeth all that ye do.

8:74. Those who believe, and adopt exile, and fight for the Faith, in the cause of God as well as those who give (them) asylum and aid,- these are (all) in very truth the Believers: for them is the forgiveness of sins and a provision most generous.

sorry to point out something abit irrelevant but i didnt notice it before, if muslims who didnt go into exile seek your aid to fight pagans with whome you have a peace treaty, they should not fight them, and they have no duty of protection to the muslims, so here clearly the quraan is favouring the pagans over the muslims who didnt go into exile when they were botted from meccah.

So a god would rather those muslims get persecuted then break a peace treaty with non muslims...

9:4. (But the treaties are) not dissolved with those Pagans with whom ye have entered into alliance and who have not subsequently failed you in aught, nor aided any one against you. So fulfil your engagements with them to the end of their term: for God loveth the righteous.

Allah loves the rightous who honour their word even if they are pagans/athiests.

I know it hurts for some of you guys to read messages of peace from the quraan (mr napolean) but it is what the quraan says and what you think it says, it doesnt say.

Here are some quick quotes from muhammed to give you a btter understanding of the real (non internet version) teachings of islam and muhammed - and should give you an idea as to why early muslim scientists were known as 'scholars'

“Seek knowledge from the cradle to the grave”

“Shall I not inform you of a better act than fasting, alms, and prayers? Making peace between one another: enmity and malice tear up heavenly rewards by the roots”

“Do not say, that if the people do good to us, we will do good to them; and if the people oppress us, we will oppress them; but determine that if people do you good, you will do good to them; and if they oppress you, you will not oppress them”

When a man marries, he has fulfilled half of the religion, so let him fear God regarding the remaining half.

What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs (the peace of) your heart, give it up.

He who has in his heart as much faith as a grain of mustard seed will not enter hell, and he who has in his heart as much pride as a grain of mustard seed will not enter paradise.

“The acquisition of knowledge is a duty incumbent on every Muslim, male and female.”

“One hour's meditation on the work of the Creator is better than seventy years of prayer.”

“He who leaveth home in search of knowledge, walketh in the path of God.”

“To listen to the words of the learned, and to instil into others the lessons of science, is better than religious exercises.”

“One learned man is harder on the devil than a thousand ignorant worshippers.”

“To spend more time in learning is better than spending more time praying the support of religion is abstinence. It is better to teach knowledge one hour in the night than to pray all night.”

"Assist any person oppressed, whether Muslim or non-Muslim.”



"Do not turn away a poor man...even if all you can give is half a date. If you love the poor and bring them near you...God will bring you near Him on the Day of Resurrection." Al-Tirmidhi, Hadith 1376.

"Anyone who believes in God and the Last Day (of Judgment) should not harm his neighbor. Anyone who believes in God and the Last Day should entertain his guest generously. And anyone who believes in God and the Last Day should say what is good or keep quiet." Sahih Al-Bukhari, Volume 8, Book 73, Number 47

"Avoid cruelty and injustice...and guard yourselves against miserliness, for this has ruined nations who lived before you."
Riyadh-us-Salaheen, Hadith 203.

"Religion is very easy and whoever overburdens himself in his religion will not be able to continue in that way. So you should not be extremists, but try to be near to perfection and receive the good tidings that you will be rewarded." Sahih Bukhari,
Volume 1, Book 2, Number 38

"It is better for a leader to make a mistake in forgiving than to make a mistake in punishing." Al-Tirmidhi, Hadith 1011

" '...what is the best type of Jihad [struggle].' He answered: 'Speaking truth before a tyrannical ruler.' " Riyadh us-Saleheen
Volume 1:195

"He who has been a ruler over ten people will be brought shackled on the Day of Resurrection, until the justice (by which he ruled) loosens his chains or tyranny brings him to destruction." Al-Tirmidhi, Hadith 1037

"...you should show courtesy and be cordial with each other, so that nobody should consider himself superior to another nor do him harm." Riyadh-us-Saleheen. Hadith 602.

[Minimalist]