How Do We Behave?

[fr0d0]

Hi FNM. Wouldn't the evidence of past and present societies disagree with you? And how do you reconcile that? I would agree with you apart from that.

And you think prisoners aren't treated fairly in prisons today?

[Faith No More]

Hi FNM. Wouldn't the evidence of past and present societies disagree with you? And how do you reconcile that? I would agree with you apart from that.

I believe that these societies were and are incorrect in their moral stances. I believe most morals are subjective, but when it comes to the inalienable rights of life, there is only right and wrong. Many offenses, such as genocide, have been 'morally justified' by the people committing them but that doesn't make them so. I place slavery in this category of offenses deemed justified by some, but in fact are immoral in any situation.

And you think prisoners aren't treated fairly in prisons today?

It depends on the situation. When Bush suspended habeas corpus for the Gitmo detainees that was definitely unfair. Generally, felons like murderers and rapists get what they deserve, but there are people locked up with them for things such as moderate drug offenses which I do not think is right. Then when you add in the fact that white collar criminals who take millions from others end up in prisons with tennis courts and cushy sells, I come to the conclusion that not all prisoners are treated fairly.

[Girlysprite]

I think that slavery is not as black and white as many would like it to be. In the modern society, most people would condemn it without giving it a second thought. However, much like the ancient roman empire leaned heavily on slavery for its exisitence and luxeries, our modern society actually does the same. But many people don't realize the extend of this.

Think of the following products: shoes, clothes, flowers, chocolate, coffee, tea, jewelry, banana's, plastic knick-knacks, mobile phones - this is just a small list of items that is made with the help of modern slavery. In Africa, and large parts of Asia huge amounts of people are put to work for saleries they can barely survive on. The work is back-breaking, and 12 hours per day is common. It's not a few products here and there that have been tainted by it; Throwing a figure in the ballpark, I wouldn't be surprised if 50% of our daily products have some components originating from such third world countries.
Modern people may condemn it, but there is far, far too little action about it. No public outcry. No public rage. Just a few individuals trying to make it better. Slowly, some stuff is changing, but only after many, many years of squeezing those poor people out.

I try to live just. I must say, it is hard to find products that are fair. Part of the problem is that I don't even know which products are made through modern slave labour, and where I can find products free of this stain.

Were we to make the world really fair, and pay people what they deserve, our culture as it currently exsists would change radically. If slavery is bad, and you know it happens - how much should we do before we can say 'I did my best, there is no blame on me'?

[fr0d0]

Great posts x 2. Kudos guys

[Emanuel]

I've just recently read something related to slavery ([1]|[2]) which may be of interest.

[Arcturus]

If you believe in God, then how to behave is simple: This life is transient and if you do good things you will spend the rest of eternity in Heaven, whereas, if you behave badly you go to Hell for eternity. If you truly believe in God, then you cannot question the morality of this because God, being perfect, could not be in error.

If you do not believe in God, then this life is still a fleeting transient moment compared to the age of the universe, but how to behave is not so clear. Since this is the one and only existence, then the only rational course is to pursue those things that serve your own ends and maximise the pleasure and happiness of your short vacation from the dark abyss of eternity.

With regard to the latter, this means that the only grounds for altruism is if you happen to be a person who enjoys putting others before yourself. If you happen to be selfish thats OK too. The only thing you need to avoid is breaking the Law, since this may take away your freedom which would diminish your existence. Apart from that, it is a free for all - a morality of ends?

There is an evolutionary basis for morality. Complex species such as humans and higher mammals display 'altruistic' behavior as a form of social interaction that helps the species to survive as a whole. Morality is not something that comes from a god, but from an inherent part of complex organisms that arise from natural processes. Morality becomes more and more important as a civilization advances: moving away from the stoning of adulterers in the past to the UN human rights declaration, people are increasingly aware of our need for an ethical system to base our lives on.

As for the other case, I would then argue, if we lived by religious morals, wouldn't the world be utterly chaotic and violent? The bible tells us to kill homosexuals, that slavery is perfectly fine, and that murder can be justified in the name of an invisible god. The worst thing is, the entire doctrine of christianity lies upon the concept of vicarious redemption, that it is perfectly fine to push the blame on someone else and not be accountable for one's own actions. What about islam? In many islamic nations, genital mutilation is prevalent. Women are treated at a level beneath that of animals. Is this moral? I think not. I would want a morality that is properly reasoned and argued, not one that is built upon by religious ideologies meant to control the minds of the masses.

[Girlysprite]

Arcturus does have a point. Some may see 'the atheist way' as picking morals as you see fit. I see it as thinking deeply about why you do things. There are a lot of things and ideas we take for granted because we grew up with them, and they are the dominant idea where we live. That is how many gruesome things could happen in the past, and you'll find most supporters of the death penalty in areas where it is still applied, for instance.

The trick is to challenge the ideas we take for granted. It also means moving out of your comfort zone. It also means understanding that things rarely, if ever, are as simple as they seem to be.

Then again, I think Frodo does much the same thing, judging from his posts. He'd be reading the bible and think 'but why did it happen that way? What reason could there be? What lesson is there to learn?'

In both cases we try to shift our perspectives to another point of view, and try to understand them.

[diffidus]

If you believe in God, then how to behave is simple: This life is transient and if you do good things you will spend the rest of eternity in Heaven, whereas, if you behave badly you go to Hell for eternity. If you truly believe in God, then you cannot question the morality of this because God, being perfect, could not be in error.

If you do not believe in God, then this life is still a fleeting transient moment compared to the age of the universe, but how to behave is not so clear. Since this is the one and only existence, then the only rational course is to pursue those things that serve your own ends and maximise the pleasure and happiness of your short vacation from the dark abyss of eternity.

With regard to the latter, this means that the only grounds for altruism is if you happen to be a person who enjoys putting others before yourself. If you happen to be selfish thats OK too. The only thing you need to avoid is breaking the Law, since this may take away your freedom which would diminish your existence. Apart from that, it is a free for all - a morality of ends?

There is an evolutionary basis for morality. Complex species such as humans and higher mammals display 'altruistic' behavior as a form of social interaction that helps the species to survive as a whole. Morality is not something that comes from a god, but from an inherent part of complex organisms that arise from natural processes. Morality becomes more and more important as a civilization advances: moving away from the stoning of adulterers in the past to the UN human rights declaration, people are increasingly aware of our need for an ethical system to base our lives on.

As for the other case, I would then argue, if we lived by religious morals, wouldn't the world be utterly chaotic and violent? The bible tells us to kill homosexuals, that slavery is perfectly fine, and that murder can be justified in the name of an invisible god. The worst thing is, the entire doctrine of christianity lies upon the concept of vicarious redemption, that it is perfectly fine to push the blame on someone else and not be accountable for one's own actions. What about islam? In many islamic nations, genital mutilation is prevalent. Women are treated at a level beneath that of animals. Is this moral? I think not. I would want a morality that is properly reasoned and argued, not one that is built upon by religious ideologies meant to control the minds of the masses.

There is also another evolutionary drive, much stronger than the one you alude to and this is survival of the fittest. Do you really believe our civilisation has advanced so far? Some people claim that we are close to reaching the peak of world oil production. Advanced western civilisations seem, coincidentally, to have taken a great interest in the Middle East where all the oil is produced. We think nothing of bombing and killing people in these areas of the world in the name of fake slogans such as 'the spread of freedom and democracy throughout the world'.

To me, this is just history as usual. Evolution takes millions of years and we certainly have not evolved from those days of cheering at Christians being thrown to the lions or the mass crowds that gathered to watch the beheading of a woman.

Relying on rational thinking has led to some of the more hideous atrocities. For example, Adof Hitler and the Holacaust, the Marxist regime in Russia, and the 'leap forward' in China under Moa, which led to 30 Million deaths from famine.

I think rational thinking gives solutions to people who have their own 'ends' in mind. The great guillotine feast of blood letting following the French Revolution was the very epitome of Enlightment thinking. Those people who sanctioned the executions did not imagine they were evil, it was just that they thought they had reasoned out the solution to intractable historical problems. In their minds they were bringing in the new dawn , 'the age of reason', any price was worth paying to protect this fledgling situation.

Do not be surprised if 'push comes to shove' that in a future Malthusian conflict over resources, our western nations do not resort to type and a new cycle of survival of the fittest ensues resulting in another mass slaughter(which could be worst of all due to the terrifying weapons of mass destruction that are continually being developed).

The main problem with religion is the same as that with those who rely on a kind of rational civilisation, namely, that it is likely to be taken hostage by leaders, who will use it to justify some end that they percieve to be supreme. This may be an intractable problem for humankind.

[Eternity]

I see what your saying O.P but you have to understand that just because you don't believe in God doesn't mean you have no morals. That's not true at all morality comes from experience and knowing that doing brings good and doing bad brings bad. Some need the thought of a punishment to sway themselves away from this others do not. Though it isn't necessary to have it.

[Girlysprite]

diffidus: Rational thinking also stopped slavery of black people. It stopped women from being treated like shit. It stopped diseases, is stopping cancer now, makes sure that most kids survive (unlike less then half from the past). Blaming rational thinking for all these bad things is like blaming all these things on the fact that we breathe. You're now just twisting your own thoughts and making excuses to make rational thinking look bad. That sort of self dillusion is just inexcusable.

The guillotine was not the epitome of enlightment. Even very bad things happened in that time, they created the foundations of democracy as it exsists today. Sometimes good ideas can be horribly mangled and be poorly executed, but the idea is still good.
If the communists and Hitler had spent some MORE time thinking rational, these things might not have happened.

Bad people have always been good at dilluding themselves with whatever excuses. You think that your modern examples are the only ones? Religious people have been dilluding themselves with the bible, telling that they were right and put women on bonfires, tortured others for not looking up when the wafer was presented and led holy wars. Is that really any better?

So it seems it is not rationality to blame, but more the human nature to find an excuse for whatever they want to do deep at heart.

And yeah, that is what many humans are still doing this day.

Sadly, it is a misconception to think that evolution would make us nicer. No, it does not. We did get social skills to be nice to our group, but not all humans belong to our group. Every person that wants to start a war, makes a good effort to clearly define the enemies, tell how terrible they are and dehuminize them. We like to see ourselves as good people, so anyone who is 'that evil' isn't fully human, right?

slavery: black people aren't people but animals.
Burning witches: Witches have sold their soul to the devil and are enemies to good Christians.
Hitler: Jews are untermenchen, aka, not real people.
Communism: Kapitalists are beasts, stealing the clothes from the back of the poor and ripping the food from their mouths. They wear the skins of poor farmer children.