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(May 18, 2011 at 1:25 pm)Whirling Moat Wrote: Albert Einstein once said "Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind..". Scientifc achievement is fueled by the idealism of religion. Science cannot afford to divorce religion or as some would have it "eradicate" religion altogether...
Look up appeal to authority, quoting Einstein is not going to get you anywhere or defend the acts of hatred, terror and divisiveness prompted under religious dogma. Einstein said a lot of things about religion and despite this he stated openly he believed in no god or gods, he was an atheist, though bizarrely did not want to identify himself socially with that label.
Quote:"It was, of course, a lie what you read about my religious convictions, a lie which is being systematically repeated. I do not believe in a personal God and I have never denied this but have expressed it clearly. If something is in me which can be called religious then it is the unbounded admiration for the structure of the world so far as our science can reveal it."
May 18, 2011 at 4:48 pm (This post was last modified: May 18, 2011 at 4:49 pm by Whirling Moat.)
Peace....
Quote:Look up appeal to authority, quoting Einstein is not going to get you anywhere or defend the acts of hatred, terror and divisiveness prompted under religious dogma. Einstein said a lot of things about religion and despite this he stated openly he believed in no god or gods, he was an atheist, though bizarrely did not want to identify himself socially with that label.
Look up appeal to authority huh? Okay..before we get to this...Let me first say I know what it is, it is a logical fallacy..
Now...
To tell someone to look up an appeal to authority as your argument against an appeal to authority is kinda paradoxically wild since the request itself is its own appeal to an authority. Perhaps you should demonstrate the fallacy the next time by providing an explanation...
That said I never argued that "Einstein said it so it must be true.." so it was not an appeal to an authority per se.
As it relates to hate and other stuff promoted by religion...I would say that these things are promoted through religious institutions but are rarely found as aspects of the doctrine itself. This fault lies with those who manipulate religious institutions for selfish purposes..
May 18, 2011 at 11:52 pm (This post was last modified: May 18, 2011 at 11:53 pm by Eudaimonia.)
(May 17, 2011 at 10:34 pm)Whirling Moat Wrote: Peace...
Quote:The point should be conceded .. then the importance acknowledged.. Before you address the roots of evil.. *sigh*.. You should address its protector.. So please go to theists sites and tell them to stop making evil fair seeming...
That is not the most economical or efficient way to deal with the problem. An approach which seeks to blame a veneer would serve nothing but the lusts of those who self righteously enjoy watching others suffer persecution and slaughter. The rule of thumb is to deal with the head. If an organization is ruled by evil, find the source and destroy it.
Find the trouble maker...
If a man beats a woman the root of his anger may stem from childhood abuse himself.. But an ethical society would be remiss if it did not stop his behavior currently..
The trouble maker is wrapped up in the person who is making the trouble..
Plus, I'm interested in what you think is the root of ALL evil.. and how you define evil.. Because there should be no harm in pointing out where it resides.. especially if it is proliferate in a certain type of thinking which produces institutions whereupon the majority of the world are cultivated...
Quote:Join me in this exercise...
don't give me the happy ending without providing the process..If religious leaders universally agreed to help liberate their following from belief what would be step #1, what would the likely aftermath be?
Whirling Moat
No use engaging you in dialogue regarding a process by which you can't acknowledge the need to undertake.. I'd be happy to discuss healing with those who at least see the presence of the disease..
Quote:If a man beats a woman the root of his anger may stem from childhood abuse himself.. But an ethical society would be remiss if it did not stop his behavior currently..
Agreed. I think this is worded properly. stop his behaviour..Not Stop him. Stopping him would mean executing him entirely, all of his traits not just the menacing characteristics.
Quote:The trouble maker is wrapped up in the person who is making the trouble..
Absolutely...
Quote:Plus, I'm interested in what you think is the root of ALL evil.. and how you define evil.. Because there should be no harm in pointing out where it resides.. especially if it is proliferate in a certain type of thinking which produces institutions whereupon the majority of the world are cultivated...
The root of all evil is Free Will, which is also the root of our divinity as human beings. Evil is a state of disorder and imbalance which manifests itself as deformities in desire. Evil incarnate seeks to satisfy its inordinate cravings and lusts...it will spare no expense to possess what it desires, even if the cost are the lives of the undeserving and innocent.
For most religious institutions evil was not its progenitor..Most likely good intention was at the center of the movement during its inception..Evil is a liar..It infiltrates..and seduces...and rises to the crest of an organization and then it corrupts...ever hiding its hands.
Quote:No use engaging you in dialogue regarding a process by which you can't acknowledge the need to undertake.. I'd be happy to discuss healing with those who at least see the presence of the disease..
May 19, 2011 at 12:58 am (This post was last modified: May 19, 2011 at 6:54 am by Whirling Moat.)
Peace....
Quote:Free Will is evil?
The fact that you say this in response to what I wrote evinces a comprehension problem on your part...
I did not write that...I wrote Free Will is the root of all evil and I also stated that it is the root of human divinity..There is a difference in the thing and its point of origin..This is where you tend to falter..you improperly reduce things which are often irreducible.
I even provided my definition of evil..which was stated as an imbalanced Will.
It is one thing to disagree..That happens but when you vehemently disagree with someone after failing to grasp their point it is annoying to both parties...
This "religious mind" crap that you keep vomiting is also unbecoming...Do you realize that many of the greatest minds in science are now and have been, men and women of religion? Perhaps you think aligning yourself with hopeless souls will somehow provide haven to you...No. They are already forgotten....Immaterial by their own admission.
May 19, 2011 at 8:41 am (This post was last modified: May 19, 2011 at 9:05 am by Eudaimonia.)
(May 19, 2011 at 12:58 am)Whirling Moat Wrote:
Peace....
Quote:Free Will is evil?
The fact that you say this in response to what I wrote evinces a comprehension problem on your part...
I did not write that...I wrote Free Will is the root of all evil and I also stated that it is the root of human divinity..There is a difference in the thing and its point of origin..This is where you tend to falter..you improperly reduce things which are often irreducible.
I even provided my definition of evil..which was stated as an imbalanced Will.
It is one thing to disagree..That happens but when you vehemently disagree with someone after failing to grasp their point it is annoying to both parties...
This "religious mind" crap that you keep vomiting is also unbecoming...Do you realize that many of the greatest minds in science are now and have been, men and women of religion? Perhaps you think aligning yourself with hopeless souls will somehow provide haven to you...No. They are already forgotten....Immaterial by their own admission.
You go to bed ...And then Wake up.
Whirling Moat
I got your point.. I did not respect it..
I summarize because I have a disdain for the religious habit of utilizing red herrings within flowery or vague language in order to avoid dealing with a subject directly..
Hence:
Your initial statements laced with words/phrases like Free Will root of our Evil, divinity, manifest deformities, inordinate desires..etc.. I don't feel like reading your poetic longwinded schtick to get to your point..
A possible alternative would be to just say The root of all evil is our ability to make choices.. we choose to behave in what is culturally deemed as excess or not.. you were the one looking for the source to destroy it.. It is choice..
If the root of evil lies within our choices then the opposite of that would be no choice.. You are seeking to rid them of the abiliy to choose what is culturally unacceptable..
I'm also sure you are aware that what is considered excess is culturally subjective.. (Just a note - I'm also sure you're aware that so far the "God's" way of theophanies in remote desert tribes transmitted through ambiguous confusing language-barring text hasn't worked to elevate folx beyond whatever their culture deemed as excess.. )
This is also, I feel, an example of the point of the thread.. Why we have to go through all of this with the religious mind to progress.. It can be distracting.. The only way I see progress happening is if enough people are willing to teach those who wish to be taught.. and can open their minds beyond the dogma they tow or the defensive habit they seem to be looped in..
You missed the point the first time around...and you know you did...what you are doing now is hiding under a false cloud of smugness hoping to mitigate damage.
Quote:I summarize because I have a disdain for the religious habit of utilizing red herrings within flowery or vague language in order to avoid dealing with a subject directly..
You did not summarize, you reduced...There is a difference. You are also misappropriately citing Red herring here. Unless you mean to say that I diverted attention to another topic. Which I did not...
My language was clear, your error was apparent...Instead of simply admitting to this you feign contempt...Nice.
Quote:A possible alternative would be to just say The root of all evil is our ability to make choices.. we choose to behave in what is culturally deemed as excess or not.. you were the one looking for the source to destroy it.. It is choice..
There was no need for an alternative since you supposedly understood it the way I presented it...
As it relates to cultural norms...Yes, people consider such things as being relative...However, I contend that there is behaviour which is wrong irrespective of cultural acceptance. Now before you start arguing that morality itself is relative, you should consult with the other atheists to see if you will get in trouble.
Quote: I'm also sure you are aware that what is considered excess is culturally subjective.. (Just a note - I'm also sure you're aware that so far the "God's" way of theophanies in remote desert tribes transmitted through ambiguous confusing language-barring text hasn't worked to elevate folx beyond whatever their culture deemed as excess.. )
I don't care how subjective excess is respective to culture. Evil is evil, wittingly or unwittingly.
Quote:This is also, I feel, an example of the point of the thread.. Why we have to go through all of this with the religious mind to progress.. It can be distracting.. The only way I see progress happening is if enough people are willing to teach those who wish to be taught.. and can open their minds beyond the dogma they tow or the defensive habit they seem to be looped in..
This is naive at best...Atheists aren't in power..They are dependent subjects. Everyone else is not waiting on Atheist to teach, they are mourning atheists. It is funny that even while everyone was religiously inclined science proceeded unabated in full bloom. You make really funny points like "The only way I see progress happening.." ..The progress hasn't stopped so what do you mean "happening"???
So why did God, in all of his infinite knowledge, give us free will? What purpose does this serve such a perfect being? Why would something perfect need to create something imperfect, only to observe the inevitable? Makes no sense to me.
Why waste our time with things completely outside of our ability to comprehend? It's time to disregard such otherworldly notions and instead focus on reality as we know it.
But, as I said earlier, I doubt this will happen to the extent that us atheists hope.
I agree that continuance of progress should be focused on reality as we know it and experience it, wholeheartedly. To give my answer to your question as to why God gave us free will;
Let's suppose you have created a small army of robots. They're great at getting things done, but they need input, something to do. Let's say you wanted to teach these robots to be autonomous, how would you start that. Probably have to program in some sort of algorythm to simulate creativity. You don't really want that to go unrestrained or it could backfire and destroy your house. You'd need to progam in some sort of morality (rule set) to limit creativity. That way the AI could experience free creativity, and develop, through experience, what's right and wrong.
That's what free will means to me, an opportunity to quantify what I interpret as right and wrong, continuously develop my personal morality and limit free creativity to productive ends.
"There ought to be a term that would designate those who actually follow the teachings of Jesus, since the word 'Christian' has been largely divorced from those teachings, and so polluted by fundamentalists that it has come to connote their polar opposite: intolerance, vindictive hatred, and bigotry." -- Philip Stater, Huffington Post
always working on cleaning my windows- me regarding Johari
