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Proverbs 16:4
May 18, 2011 at 11:15 am
(This post was last modified: May 18, 2011 at 11:16 am by Skipper.)
Proverbs 16:4
The Lord hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil.
God created all things. God created me. God created evil. God created sin. God created me knowing I (and everyone) would sin. Then God sends me to hell. Fair?
I would like to hear the Christian opinion of, when looking at this verse, how me (or anyone) going to hell would be justified.
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RE: Proverbs 16:4
May 18, 2011 at 12:22 pm
Oh, I know the answer to this one.
God is perfect, he didn't create sin, man did, if man repents he's gonna go to heaven blah blah blah, free will, yada yada yada.
Probably someone is going to come up with the clever and novel idea, that if you're an infidel, then you deserve to rot in hell. No justice for kind people with wrong thoughts and beliefs. 
When I was young, there was a god with infinite power protecting me. Is there anyone else who felt that way? And was sure about it? but the first time I fell in love, I was thrown down - or maybe I broke free - and I bade farewell to God and became human. Now I don't have God's protection, and I walk on the ground without wings, but I don't regret this hardship. I want to live as a person. -Arina Tanemura
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RE: Proverbs 16:4
May 18, 2011 at 12:31 pm
(This post was last modified: May 18, 2011 at 12:32 pm by everythingafter.)
(May 18, 2011 at 11:15 am)Skipper Wrote: Proverbs 16:4
The Lord hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil.
So, let me get this straight: God created wickedness just so he could squash it?
Doesn't life in the Christian worldview seem a bit like running the gauntlet? Cursed before taking your first breath because some other guy screwed up. Sounds perfectly moral to me. 
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RE: Proverbs 16:4
May 18, 2011 at 12:46 pm
(This post was last modified: May 18, 2011 at 12:54 pm by Ace Otana.)
(May 18, 2011 at 12:31 pm)everythingafter Wrote: (May 18, 2011 at 11:15 am)Skipper Wrote: Proverbs 16:4
The Lord hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil.
So, let me get this straight: God created wickedness just so he could squash it?
Doesn't life in the Christian worldview seem a bit like running the gauntlet? Cursed before taking your first breath because some other guy screwed up. Sounds perfectly moral to me.
Religion only makes sense to those who already believe it, and those who believe it are fools....(in my opinion anyway).
To be punished for something you had nothing to do with is just plain stupid. It's like locking up, F0d0 for what his great, great, great granddad did hundreds of years ago like murder.
If we did things that way, we'd all end up behind bars for what our ancestors did. How the fuck can that work? You punish the wrong doer, not the fucking offspring. Stupid god.
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Being an atheist says nothing about your overall intelligence, it just means you don't believe in god. Atheists can be as bright as any scientist and as stupid as any creationist.
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RE: Proverbs 16:4
May 18, 2011 at 12:53 pm
(This post was last modified: May 18, 2011 at 12:53 pm by everythingafter.)
(May 18, 2011 at 12:46 pm)Ace Otana Wrote: To be punished for something you had nothing to do with is just plain stupid. It's like locking up, F0d0 for what his great, great, great granddad did hundreds of years ago like murder.
Or punishing some white, 20-year-old guy in Alabama because his great great great grandfather owned a slave or two. It's not only unjust but immoral.
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We have lingered in the chambers of the sea | By sea-girls wreathed with seaweed red and brown | Till human voices wake us, and we drown. — T.S. Eliot
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"As if that blind rage had washed me clean, rid me of hope; for the first time, in that night alive with signs and stars, I opened myself to the gentle indifference of the world. Finding it so much like myself—so like a brother, really—I felt that I had been happy and that I was happy again." — Albert Camus, "The Stranger"
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RE: Proverbs 16:4
May 18, 2011 at 1:16 pm
(May 18, 2011 at 11:15 am)Skipper Wrote: Proverbs 16:4
The Lord hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil.
God created all things. God created me. God created evil. God created sin. God created me knowing I (and everyone) would sin. Then God sends me to hell. Fair?
I would like to hear the Christian opinion of, when looking at this verse, how me (or anyone) going to hell would be justified.
How else is Yahweh supposed to satisfy his sadistic glee on judgment day?
The "elect" are to be saved to kiss his holy ass for all eternity in Heaven. The predestined damned souls like us will have our hearts hardened so that we might not believe, so he can have fun tormenting us. We all have our roles to play.
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... -Statler Waldorf, Christian apologist
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RE: Proverbs 16:4
May 18, 2011 at 1:19 pm
(May 18, 2011 at 11:15 am)Skipper Wrote: Proverbs 16:4
The Lord hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil.
God created all things. God created me. God created evil. God created sin. God created me knowing I (and everyone) would sin. Then God sends me to hell. Fair?
I would like to hear the Christian opinion of, when looking at this verse, how me (or anyone) going to hell would be justified.
Skipper, you seem to have taken that verse "out of context". If you read the entire bible three times (forward, backwards, and once upside down), you'll learn that what the verse actually really means is that God did NOT create evil.
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RE: Proverbs 16:4
May 18, 2011 at 1:22 pm
(This post was last modified: May 18, 2011 at 1:24 pm by Skipper.)
(May 18, 2011 at 12:22 pm)Kayenneh Wrote: Oh, I know the answer to this one.
God is perfect, he didn't create sin, man did, if man repents he's gonna go to heaven blah blah blah, free will, yada yada yada.
I know that's the usual drivel they spit around, including most here, "man created sin" etc, but Proverbs 16:4 says god created "all things" even evil. But I came across this verse that I had never seen before so I thought I'd post it for a discussion also I really want to see how they try and explain it away (with claims of "out of context" no doubt)
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RE: Proverbs 16:4
May 18, 2011 at 1:27 pm
(This post was last modified: May 18, 2011 at 1:28 pm by Doubting Thomas.)
It's kind of like asking why God had to create Hell? He created everything, including Heaven and Hell. Why did he have to create Hell? Why did he have to create the entire, vast universe just for a bunch of people on one small speck of dust in it, knowing that some of the people he created would be sent to Hell for eternal punishment.
For that matter, why did he even have to create people at all? OK, let's assume that for some strange reason it's logical that an all-powerful, perfect being needs a life form to worship him for eternity. Why not just create Heaven and all the souls in it who, if he went with the current scenario of making earth and having the good people join him in Heaven, would have gone to Heaven anyway and then not have to torture all the people in Hell for eternity? Your job once you get to Heaven is to kiss God's ass for eternity anyway, so why didn't he just go *poof!* here's heaven with all the good souls in it to worship me for eternity. No need to make bad people and torture them forever. Why make Satan whom God knew would start a war in Heaven just to get cast down to earth/Hell? It seems like God was just bored (strange for a perfect being) and decided to create an evil nemesis just to play around with.
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RE: Proverbs 16:4
May 18, 2011 at 1:41 pm
" The Lord hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil." Proverbs 16:4
Quote:God created all things.
Yes, the text says this.
Quote:God created me.
Yes, this is implied by the text.
Quote:God created evil.
No, text does not say this. If it had wanted to say this, it would say "God created their wickedness", but it says "God created the wicked".
Quote:God created sin.
No, the text does not say this.
Quote:God created me knowing I (and everyone) would sin.
No, the text does not say this.
Quote:Then God sends me to hell.
No, the text does not say this.
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