And the warmongers waste no time

[Violet]

but generally you only have the ships you started the war with.

True enough for the Japanese. However, we had begun the R & D for Essex class carriers and Iowa class battleships by 1939. When war broke out, instead of 10 ships we ordered 30.

The Japanese built one carrier from the keel up..the Taiho, and even that was started before the war began. Industrially, the Japanese were not match. Oddly, they knew that and attacked Pearl Harbor anyway. Interesting psychology there.

They were trying for a fast victory, as they could not sustain a long conflict. <--their psychology there.

Development of additional vessels during a war can be a difficult thing, especially when taking heavy losses. It depends on 2 things really: resources available and length of the war. If you don't have the resources to field ships quickly... then it might be more intelligent to focus strongly on your industry and technology than to waste what little you have on what will be a slightly dated reinforcement. If the war will only last for a few battles, then reinforcements are utterly pointless.

I've been in wars for centuries before... it completely changes your mentality. Eventually, one starts building only slightly more warships than they are losing because it takes resources to maintain "waste fleet" that could be far better used on refitting what you already have or not spent on military at all. The war stops mattering about numbers on each side, and it becomes a war of military technology, sabotage/espionage, and intel. It's really quite fascinating how much each side digs in along their border, testing its strength every few years.

[Minimalist]

Well good, then. To continue this love fest here is a present for you.


http://www.economist.com/blogs/democracy...y_spending

Hands off the warfare state!

[Anymouse]

Sometimes I feel like Washington, D.C. is another country.

Well it's definitely not a state.

[Violet]

Yea, the US can afford to trim a little fat from the military budget.

With that much military expenditure: it's a crime to not lay waste to those around you in a mad bid for a larger production-base and population-capacity.

That is inexcusable... by gods does this country suffer from either its semblance of 'democracy' or its overbearing military budget.

And given the predisposition of its government... it is anything but suited to military strength.

[Anymouse]

With that much military expenditure: it's a crime to not lay waste to those around you in a mad bid for a larger production-base and population-capacity.

That is inexcusable... by gods does this country suffer from either its semblance of 'democracy' or its overbearing military budget.

And given the predisposition of its government... it is anything but suited to military strength.

While I don't know the exact figures, I do know that a huge portion of the military budget is for pay and benefits. I suspect that China (which has a much larger number of personnel) doesn't spend nearly as much on pay.

Note that it is difficult to have an all-volunteer armed force when you only pay $7 a month.

A great deal of the military's expenditures could be eliminated by reinstituting the draft and eliminating a pay scale that comes within thirty percent or so of civilian pay for the same types of work.

My mother noted to me when she was in the Navy, the pay for a Petty Officer Third Class (her rank) was $96.90 a month (before taxes, in 1960). In 1979, when I achieved the same rank (in the same rating as her, aviation electronics), and the service had been all volunteer for only a few years, my pay was about $490 a month (before taxes).

When I left the service as a Petty Officer First Class, my pay and allowances were close to $2,000 a month in 1996, where a union aviation electronics mechanic working for an airline made close to $50,000.

Even so, with the dramatic rise in pay since 1960, we could certainly shave a bunch off the DOD budget. Just have to reinstitute a draft to do it.

Miss Aerzia, you need exactly six hundred more up ratings to your reputation.

[theVOID]

Well good, then. To continue this love fest here is a present for you.


http://www.economist.com/blogs/democracy...y_spending

Hands off the warfare state!

Ha! That's patently absurd!

From what I've read on the sources I follow there seems to be complete agreement between liberals and libertarians on this issue, not only could the cutting of military spending to 2004 levels yield a balanced budget in 10 years (according to Ron Paul at least), the lack of armed conflict with other nations would also limit what the CIA refer to as "blow back" causing (completely contrary to the position of the Warmongers) a safer world with less hostility.

To be honest I'm not versed in the figures beyond a face-value consideration but the idea of blow back seems perfectly sound to me.

[Minimalist]

it's a crime to not lay waste to those around you

But we ARE laying waste to those around us, Sae.

Witness Detroit:

[Violet]

... I suppose this is easier with the Silicoid, who do not care where I send them or what there mission is... and who I pay only by feeding them, unless they happen to ask for more (the only way you get into our government). Humans are rather more fickle about war, wanting far more than the respect our people have towards those of us who have fought for the others. Indeed, your race uses military as leverage for nonsense like college... like they cannot even make up their minds as to whether they want to pursue science or directly fight wars, but the reality is that they don't wish to fight wars when they do this.

If a country must conscript to receive its fighting force: it is evident that the heart of the people is not in the country. Drafts are not relevant in a society willing to serve its continued existence, especially when they will not do this in the face of a war. But perhaps this is because humans do not face the reality of space: battles of extermination... times when entire star systems full of our families and friends are annihilated wholesale by alien forces that aren't remotely interested in the lives of our people.

While I am certainly not against your militaries... I am against the philosophy of your race's military tradition. It isn't about what the soldiers wish to distinguish themselves for, it isn't about presenting your proficiency for combat, it isn't even about earning the respect of your people...





It's uniform, it's marketed, and it is faceless. I do not believe that this accomplishes anything more than to demoralize your troops and to shatter any hope of furthering tolerance of difference among your populace. And when they return home they face shit like being insulted by random civilians who disagree with whatever war the veteran returned from, and when they die their death rituals are sometimes disturbed by shit like this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=spz_weG6MVg

It disgusts me that even such a base society could ever disrespect the reason for its continued existence in the face of war.

---

---

it's a crime to not lay waste to those around you

But we ARE laying waste to those around us, Sae.

Witness Detroit:

---

That you do not slay your own "leaders" is beyond me.

[Anymouse]

---

... I suppose this is easier with the Silicoid, who do not care where I send them or what there mission is... and who I pay only by feeding them, unless they happen to ask for more (the only way you get into our government). Humans are rather more fickle about war, wanting far more than the respect our people have towards those of us who have fought for the others. Indeed, your race uses military as leverage for nonsense like college... like they cannot even make up their minds as to whether they want to pursue science or directly fight wars, but the reality is that they don't wish to fight wars when they do this.

If a country must conscript to receive its fighting force: it is evident that the heart of the people is not in the country. Drafts are not relevant in a society willing to serve its continued existence, especially when they will not do this in the face of a war. But perhaps this is because humans do not face the reality of space: battles of extermination... times when entire star systems full of our families and friends are annihilated wholesale by alien forces that aren't remotely interested in the lives of our people.

While I am certainly not against your militaries... I am against the philosophy of your race's military tradition. It isn't about what the soldiers wish to distinguish themselves for, it isn't about presenting your proficiency for combat, it isn't even about earning the respect of your people...





It's uniform, it's marketed, and it is faceless. I do not believe that this accomplishes anything more than to demoralize your troops and to shatter any hope of furthering tolerance of difference among your populace. And when they return home they face shit like being insulted by random civilians who disagree with whatever war the veteran returned from, and when they die their death rituals are sometimes disturbed by shit like this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=spz_weG6MVg

It disgusts me that even such a base society could ever disrespect the reason for its continued existence in the face of war.

---

That you do not slay your own "leaders" is beyond me.

---

Actually, Miss Aerzia, what you say makes much sense, which worries me about me.

As for the college benefit part, the VA took mine away from me, saying I was unemployable. That college bene thing isn't guaranteed either. I was once posted as a Navy recruiter (during the Persian Gulf War, lemme tell you, recruiting then wasn't a cakewalk) and did not know they could take the college benefit away from you by simply declaring it. I thought I knew every in and out about the college programmes of all the services, but that one surprised me when the VA took it away upon my discharge after seventeen years.

However, as I am listed as permanently disabled for epilepsy and craziness, my wife can use the college benefit to add to her three college degree collection.

[Minimalist]

I follow there seems to be complete agreement between liberals and libertarians

Even they have defense establishments or war profiteering industries in their districts. Void, you know how they say you can't really learn to speak another language unless you live there? I think you need, after the next earthquake, to come live in the states for a while. By all means, live in a trailer park in Mississippi for a couple of months...where you can learn about why jesus hates New Zealand ( wherever it is) and the French. Then come to Arizona where we can have a couple of beers and I'll introduce you to my Birther relatives. Then you can go to Iowa where they think Michelle Bachmann is presidential timber....and so on.

At the end of the year you'll go back to NZ and never dare leave its shores again....even if it sinks into the Pacific!