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RE: Does human life have INHERENT value?
June 21, 2015 at 10:04 pm
(June 21, 2015 at 9:52 pm)KUSA Wrote: (June 21, 2015 at 9:03 pm)Catholic_Lady Wrote: As I said in other threads, I believe the OT stories are written allegorically and not literally.
It's kind of dangerous for a Christian to say that portions of the bible are not literal. It kind of opens the rest of it as not being literal.
Indeed, I can't imagine encouraging apostasy is an actual church policy. In the 'good old days' radical ideas like what Catholic_Lady is espousing could get someone a red hot poker shoved up their ass.
The granting of a pardon is an imputation of guilt, and the acceptance a confession of it.
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RE: Does human life have INHERENT value?
June 21, 2015 at 10:15 pm
(This post was last modified: June 21, 2015 at 10:18 pm by Catholic_Lady.)
(June 21, 2015 at 9:41 pm)Chuck Wrote: (June 21, 2015 at 9:03 pm)Catholic_Lady Wrote: God is not a micromanager . He gave us free will. He allows nature to take its course.
That's an unproven assertion built upon another unproven assertion, which in turn is based on yet another unproven assertion.
Do you actually have anything with any measure of DEMONSTRABLE substance?
Perhaps you might extend your initial assertion a little an arrive at the conclusion if it appears God is letting nature taking its course, it's because there is no God to prevent nature from taking its course.
I'm just here responding to people who address me or ask me questions. I'm not here to try to convert any of you.
I respect your opinions.
(June 21, 2015 at 9:52 pm)KUSA Wrote: (June 21, 2015 at 9:03 pm)Catholic_Lady Wrote: As I said in other threads, I believe the OT stories are written allegorically and not literally.
It's kind of dangerous for a Christian to say that portions of the bible are not literal. It kind of opens the rest of it as not being literal.
In the Catholic Church, it is perfectly acceptable to view the OT stories as having been written allegorically rather than literally.
(June 21, 2015 at 9:54 pm)Chuck Wrote: (June 21, 2015 at 9:52 pm)KUSA Wrote: It's kind of dangerous for a Christian to say that portions of the bible are not literal. It kind of opens the rest of it as not being literal.
All earthly life has intrinsic value except when it is inconvenient for the Catholic Church to let that life be preserved, in which case Catholic Church would just kill it in as painful a way as humans have ever contrived in the name of saving its "soul", while suddenly becoming all quiet about its "value".
The Catholic Church does not condone killing unless it is in absolute self defense or justifiable war.
The past few popes have spoken vehemently against the death penalty.
"Of course, everyone will claim they respect someone who tries to speak the truth, but in reality, this is a rare quality. Most respect those who speak truths they agree with, and their respect for the speaking only extends as far as their realm of personal agreement. It is less common, almost to the point of becoming a saintly virtue, that someone truly respects and loves the truth seeker, even when their conclusions differ wildly."
-walsh
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RE: Does human life have INHERENT value?
June 21, 2015 at 10:24 pm
(June 21, 2015 at 10:15 pm)Catholic_Lady Wrote: (June 21, 2015 at 9:41 pm)Chuck Wrote: That's an unproven assertion built upon another unproven assertion, which in turn is based on yet another unproven assertion.
Do you actually have anything with any measure of DEMONSTRABLE substance?
Perhaps you might extend your initial assertion a little an arrive at the conclusion if it appears God is letting nature taking its course, it's because there is no God to prevent nature from taking its course.
I'm just here responding to people who address me or ask me questions. I'm not here to try to convert any of you.
I respect your opinions.
(June 21, 2015 at 9:52 pm)KUSA Wrote: It's kind of dangerous for a Christian to say that portions of the bible are not literal. It kind of opens the rest of it as not being literal.
In the Catholic Church, it is perfectly acceptable to view the OT stories as having been written allegorically rather than literally.
(June 21, 2015 at 9:54 pm)Chuck Wrote: All earthly life has intrinsic value except when it is inconvenient for the Catholic Church to let that life be preserved, in which case Catholic Church would just kill it in as painful a way as humans have ever contrived in the name of saving its "soul", while suddenly becoming all quiet about its "value".
The Catholic Church does not condone killing unless it is in absolute self defense or justifiable war.
The past few popes have spoken vehemently against the death penalty.
God commands an army to slaughter people, kidnap virgins, and loot there town, what is the moral of that story. When god gives instructions on what slaves to own, where to buy them, how to brand them, and how much you can beat them, what message is he really trying to get across? Also all of creation, the prophecies, and commandments are in the OT, is none of that meant to be taken literally.
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RE: Does human life have INHERENT value?
June 21, 2015 at 10:32 pm
(This post was last modified: June 21, 2015 at 10:33 pm by Mr.wizard.)
My above reply was in response to CL saying that the OT was just allegory, I replied to this quote by mistake.
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RE: Does human life have INHERENT value?
June 21, 2015 at 10:40 pm
Back on the topic,
the human brain is the most organized form of matter yet discovered in the universe, also, from the atheist perspective with no god(s) yet having been shown to exist, that human brain is the culmination of the Big Bang and Darwinism to date; whatever the word 'value' means, it needs to start there.
The granting of a pardon is an imputation of guilt, and the acceptance a confession of it.
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Does human life have INHERENT value?
June 21, 2015 at 10:42 pm
I'm glad to hear homosexuality is just allegory and not an abomination. It would be a shame to have to put them to death.
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RE: Does human life have INHERENT value?
June 21, 2015 at 10:42 pm
(This post was last modified: June 21, 2015 at 10:58 pm by Anomalocaris.)
(June 21, 2015 at 10:15 pm)Catholic_Lady Wrote: (June 21, 2015 at 9:54 pm)Chuck Wrote: All earthly life has intrinsic value except when it is inconvenient for the Catholic Church to let that life be preserved, in which case Catholic Church would just kill it in as painful a way as humans have ever contrived in the name of saving its "soul", while suddenly becoming all quiet about its "value".
The Catholic Church does not condone killing unless it is in absolute self defense or justifiable war.
The past few popes have spoken vehemently against the death penalty.
And which was it, absolute self defense, or justifiable war, that made it okay for the Catholic Church to try it's very own hand in burning hundreds of thousands, if not millions, of witches and heretics when the Catholic Church actually had the power to call up holy wars and pronounce death sentences?
As to the last few popes, it was very noble of those holy fathers to abhor killing by others a coupLe of hundred years AFTER progress of humanity through the Age of Enlightenment, which the Catholic Church abhorred also, had in most places deprived the Catholic Church of its traditional power to call up holy wars and pronounce death sentences.
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RE: Does human life have INHERENT value?
June 21, 2015 at 10:49 pm
If heaven is "the" place to aspire to, then why should life on earth (the testing grounds) be sacred?
Is it because that's the only way you can "get" to heaven?
So life is sacred only because it's the vehicle needed. No other reason?
We atheists who don't subscribe to the "destination", believe the journey is all there is, and such try to make the little we can of it to make it worthwhile. For our destination is oblivion.
No God, No fear.
Know God, Know fear.
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RE: Does human life have INHERENT value?
June 21, 2015 at 10:55 pm
(This post was last modified: June 21, 2015 at 11:00 pm by JuliaL.)
(June 21, 2015 at 5:44 pm)Catholic_Lady Wrote: Yes, I believe human life has inherent value. That means it is itself valuable. It is not conditional. It is not valuble only if other people value it. It is valuable because it is. That is the very nature of it.
In the same way that grass is green, life is valuable.
Inherent is the key word on my OP question. ;-)
Would human life have value if God didn't value it?
It would seem He doesn't as His actions to preserve it are indistinguishable from the mechanistic activity of natural law.
If no difference can ever be found between two explanations then there is no difference between them.
If a claim is made that natural law created by God is what provides an organized universe in which life can persist, some explanation is owed as to why so much of the universe is intensely hostile to human life.
(June 21, 2015 at 10:40 pm)vorlon13 Wrote: the human brain is the most organized form of matter yet discovered in the universe, also, from the atheist perspective with no god(s) yet having been shown to exist, that human brain is the culmination of the Big Bang and Darwinism to date; whatever the word 'value' means, it needs to start there. My bold.
I have to hate this 'human brain is the most complex yada yada."
It's just so obviously and self servingly false.
Persistent repetition doesn't make it true.
How 'bout two brains working in concert?
A village?
A society?
A society and its supporting ecosystem?
So how, exactly, does God know that She's NOT a brain in a vat? 
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RE: Does human life have INHERENT value?
June 21, 2015 at 11:15 pm
(June 21, 2015 at 10:40 pm)vorlon13 Wrote: Back on the topic,
the human brain is the most organized form of matter yet discovered in the universe, also, from the atheist perspective with no god(s) yet having been shown to exist, that human brain is the culmination of the Big Bang and Darwinism to date; whatever the word 'value' means, it needs to start there.
Never heard it put that way before. Interesting perspective.
"Of course, everyone will claim they respect someone who tries to speak the truth, but in reality, this is a rare quality. Most respect those who speak truths they agree with, and their respect for the speaking only extends as far as their realm of personal agreement. It is less common, almost to the point of becoming a saintly virtue, that someone truly respects and loves the truth seeker, even when their conclusions differ wildly."
-walsh
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