(May 23, 2016 at 3:09 am)robvalue Wrote:(May 22, 2016 at 7:48 pm)SteveII Wrote: Can you give an example of something that has a material cause and not an efficient cause? Even better, an example that might otherwise be considered a miracle by someone at some time.
This apparently happens in quantum mechanics all the time. People consider all kinds of things miracles before they understand them. They even consider them miracles when science does understand them.
Quote:So, your position seems to be that what we call miracles have naturalistic explanations that we just don't understand yet?
No. I'm saying they might have, or they may have no efficient cause.
Quote:1) Isn't that an argument from ignorance?
No. I'm not making a claim. I'm refuting the claim that there are no natural causes to any given event.
Quote:2) Under that reasoning, why don't we see more of these 'miracles' if it is just a matter of misunderstanding the cause? The rarity of a miracle actually supports the premise that miracles happen.
We don't see any miracles. We see people reporting miracles. I can't help what people report.
Quote:3) If you zero in on a particular miracle example, there are often circumstances that make the 'heretofore unknown natural causes' just at the right moment and in the right context ridiculously unlikely.
I don't think you, or anyone, is qualified to make that assessment. You're again assuming our scientific knowledge is almost complete.
Quote:4) Whether a miracle happened or not is a probabilistic question. The more evidence and context clues the higher the probability.
No, it's an argument from ignorance. There is no way of calculating the probability of there being an explanation we don't know yet. And what is the point? If we find the explanation, the conclusion was wrong. If we never find it, we still don't know the explanation is right, and it achieves nothing.
Even if you could determine there was a supernatural cause, you could never determine what that cause is. What use is that? Any supernatural cause would look the same as any other, which would look the same as no cause at all from our perspective. We only see the resulting effect.
So what was the purpose of distinguishing between efficient and material causes?
An argument from ignorance is believing something is true because it has not yet been proven false (or vice versa). We need an example. Take healing the paralyzed guy in Matthew 9. It is not my claim that Jesus made him walk because I know of no other explanation. I think Jesus healed him because:
1. If Jesus was the Son of God, he would have such power
2. The effect immediately followed the question "Which is easier: to say, ‘Your sins are forgiven,’ or to say, ‘Get up and walk’?" which gives context and purpose--a very important point in response to your last paragraph.
3. We have the eyewitness evidence of the man getting up and walking.
See, no argument from ignorance. I have clear warrant to believe the cause was Jesus. The witnessed "resulting effect" can be combined with the context to assign a high probability that this is a miracle. The only justification to think a natural cause was responsible is to deny a miracle is possible--which would be circular.
Of course if you want to try the old 'gospels are made up as part of a conspiracy' or the tired 'eyewitness testimony is not evidence' objections, you may do that. But neither of these (or their variations) are arguments against the possibility of supernatural causation.
Quote:Matthew 9
1 Jesus stepped into a boat, crossed over and came to his own town. 2 Some men brought to him a paralyzed man, lying on a mat. When Jesus saw their faith, he said to the man, “Take heart, son; your sins are forgiven.”
3 At this, some of the teachers of the law said to themselves, “This fellow is blaspheming!”
4 Knowing their thoughts, Jesus said, “Why do you entertain evil thoughts in your hearts? 5 Which is easier: to say, ‘Your sins are forgiven,’ or to say, ‘Get up and walk’? 6 But I want you to know that the Son of Man has authority on earth to forgive sins.” So he said to the paralyzed man, “Get up, take your mat and go home.” 7 Then the man got up and went home. 8 When the crowd saw this, they were filled with awe; and they praised God, who had given such authority to man.