JESUS CHRIST: Myth or Historical Person?

[Thor]

I love it when the brainwashed want to "prove" the existence of Jesus by citing sources that are NOT primary! Someone who was born AFTER Jesus supposedly died CANNOT be considered a primary source. At best, all they can offer is hearsay! And why don't we have numerous contemporary historical accounts of Jesus's supposed resurrection? A guy dying and coming back to life wasn't worth a mention? The apologists will have rationalizations for this, but any reasonable person can easily see that the Jesus story is complete bullshit.

[Phil]

These are the silent 40.

1. Josephus
2. Philo
3. Seneca
4. Pliny the Elder
5. Suetonius
6. Juvenal
7. Martial
8. Persius
9. Plutarch
10. Justus of Tiberias
11. Apollonius
12. Pliny the Younger
13. Tacitus
14. Quintilian
15. Lucanus
16. Epictetus
17. Silius Italicus
18. Statius
19. Ptolemy
20. Valerius Maximus
21. Arrian
22. Petronius
23. Dion Pruseus
24. Paterculus
25. Appian
26. Theon of Smyrna
27. Phlegon
28. Pomponius Mela
29. Quintius Curtius
30. Lucian
31. Pausanias
32. Valerius Flaccus
33. Florus Lucius
34. Favorinius
35. Phaedrus
36. Damis
37. Aulus Gellius
38. Columella
39. Dio Chrysostom
40. Appion of Alexandria

Suetonius and Pliny the Younger do mention Jesus (if they are authentic and not Christian interpolations) but fact is they are both much to late to distinguish between Christ and Christianity.

On Tacitus:

1. There are no quotes of this passage by any of the church fathers.
2. Tertullian was familar with all the writings of Tactius and if this passage existed it would have been cited as an answer to his arguments (Chapter 5 of Tertullian's Apology and Chapter 21 of the same).
3. In the beginning of the 3rd century Clement of Alexandria compiled a list of all references from Pagan writers to Jesus and Tactius is missing from it.
4. Origen in his arguments with Celsus would have referred to it had it existed.
5. Eusibius in the 4th century did the same as Clement of Alexandria and once again, no mention of Tactius.
6. The first quotation of it by a Christian writer was in the 15th century.
7. At the time of the quotation it was said only one copy of the Annals existed and it was made 600 years after Tactius died.
8. Conveniently, this single existing copy was in the possession of a Christian so insertion of a forged passage would have been extremely easy.
9. The story about the orgies of Nero do not read anything like the writing of Tactius.
10. This story is almost word for word in the writing of Sulpicus Severus who was a Christian in the 5th century but there were no references to Jesus.
11. Suetonius, a Roman historian, who condemned Nero heavily even tells us Nero took care not to sacrifice a human life, not even of a convicted criminal.
12. Tactius even claims at the time of the fire that Nero was not in Rome but in Antium.

These are just a few reasons that scholars see this passage from Annals as nothing to be reckoned with as it most probably is a forgery in the same vein as Josephus' Testimonium and at best it is nothing more than heresay.

On Josephus:

The Testimonium was not written by Josephus and there are many reasons in the text itself. One example is that in the text Jesus is called the messiah yet Josephus remained an observant Jew and never became a Christian therefore he could not have called Jesus the messiah. Secondly, there are 3 different manuscript of the Testimonium and as expected, the later manuscripts have more details than the earlier ones as if the story evolved with time. Third and EXTREMELY DAMNING is that there were no references to it nor was it even mentioned in any writing until the 4th century when Constantine appointed Eusibius official church historian (Eusebius is the suspected author of the Testimonium) Fourth and a final nail in the Testimonium's coffin is textual analysis of the text with Josephus known writing shows certain phrase and words that were not used by Josephus but were found in the writing of only one church historian by the name of Eusebius.

[Creed of Heresy]

Phil: LIKE A BOSS.

[LiberalHearted]

Phil you do rock.

I was racking my eyes out looking for the bookmarks and you wrote beautifully.

Now we need Min to expound on the archeological aspects.

[Creed of Heresy]

Yeah, I can't add anything on to what Phil just said. I'll wait a round of posts to say anything new. XD

[Minimalist]

My dear friend, why don't you, for once, ignore your own biased interpetations and see the Bible for what it was meant to be ... the word of God.

Why don't you, for once, ignore your own biased interpretations and see the Bible for what it was meant to be. Horse shit.

We have a winner!

[Phil]

Phil: LIKE A BOSS.

Checkmate Christians

[Minimalist]

Suetonius and Pliny the Younger do mention Jesus

Actually, Phil, they do not. Both mention "xtians" ( except in one place Suetonius mentions "chrestians"). Neither one mentions fuckall about any "jesus."



As far as Tacitus goes the first appearance of much ( but not all ) of the passage which later appeared in Annales is from a 5th century xtian writer named Sulpicius Severus in his work Chronica.

http://www.ewtn.com/library/PATRISTC/PII11-5.TXT

CHAPTER XXIX.

Is the meantime, the number of the Christians being now very large, it happened that Rome was destroyed by fire, while Nero was stationed at Antium. But the opinion of all cast the odium of causing the fire upon the emperor, and he was believed in this way to have sought for the glory of building a new city. And in fact, Nero could not by any means he tried escape from the charge that the fire had been caused by his orders. He therefore turned the accusation against the Christians, and the most cruel tortures were accordingly inflicted upon the innocent. Nay, even new kinds of death were invented, so that, being covered in the skins of wild beasts, they perished by being devoured by dogs, while many were crucified or slain by fire, and not a few were set apart for this purpose, that, when the day came to a close, they should be consumed to serve for light during the night. In this way, cruelty tint began to be manifested against the
Christians. Afterwards, too, their religion was prohibited by laws which
were enacted; and by edicts openly set forth it was proclaimed unlawful to be a Christian. At that time Paul and Peter were condemned to death, the former being beheaded with a sword, while Peter suffered crucifixion. And while these things went on at Rome, the Jews, not able to endure the injuries they suffered under the rule of Festus Florus, began to rebel.

Two things about Chronica. First, as you can see even in this 5th century drivel there is no reference to "Pilate" or "Christ." This was obviously added in even later. Second, a little historical note to show how generally unreliable these writings can be on matters of "fact." Severus refers to Festus Florus. He has run together two Roman officials. Porcius Festus was procurator c 60 AD while Gessius Florus was procurator in 66 AD.

[Phil]

Suetonius and Pliny the Younger do mention Jesus

Actually, Phil, they do not. Both mention "xtians" ( except in one place Suetonius mentions "chrestians"). Neither one mentions fuckall about any "jesus."

Why is it you in this thread and DP in the other thread seem to be missing the latter part of that sentence that says (if they are authentic and not Christian interpolations) but fact is they are both much to late to distinguish between Christ and Christianity?

As far as Tacitus goes the first appearance of much ( but not all ) of the passage which later appeared in Annales is from a 5th century xtian writer named Sulpicius Severus in his work Chronica.

Which is clearly stated under #10 when it says 10. This story is almost word for word in the writing of Sulpicus Severus who was a Christian in the 5th century but there were no references to Jesus.

[lullaby]

Ron Wyatt claimed he discovered the blood of Jesus, the face of Jesus was discovered on a Shroud, wouldn't the bible count I mean there are 365 prophecies of Jesus recorded in the Old Testament.