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Nationalism and secularism
18th April 2012, 18:01
Post: #31
  4k posts! 2 years membership!
RE: Nationalism and secularism
Quote:The many cultures and ethnicities that came together in this melting pot is exactly what it means to be American.
This is what I said.


Quote:Turkey is also a melting pot,
Turkey is a nation state built on an ethnic identity, unlike America.
Quote:You clearly don't have any idea of just how easy it is to pin down this or that "American" thing to it's ethnicity of origin.
And where does this lead you to?

Quote: We didn't abandon where we came from, we combined them all, and we now have pride in all of them collectively.
I don't think so. I think you created a new culture while taking parts from various other cultures brought in by immigrants, like foodstuffs and you tell me that you're proud of them "collectively", whereas there is probably no real culture to speak of at all. Those who live in ethnic enclaves, such as chinatowns may have preserved their identity far better than those who live in mixed regions, but I'm not sure how a single Turkish immigrant can actually contribute to the overall cultural accumulation of the US in any way other than by selling döner. Even if we continue to live in America for further generations, our culture will still be considered *foreign* by the Europe-centric cultural affiliations that the US has. However, it's still too superficial. The only cultural aspect the the US has, is the aspect of the so-called American dream. Nearly all your cultural events are somewhat directed towards this concept.
There is no collective of cultures in America, there is the destruction of cultures, tongues and peoples. Therefore it's a melting pot, not a salad bowl.
Quote: Sometimes too much, there are "American" things which are most likely nothing to be proud of.
Like? McDonalds? Disneyworld? Baseball? What really comes to your mind when you think of something "American"?
It really baffles me that you can even compare your culture to our grand culture that spans over the Asian continent.
Quote:The same is true of your own culture, whether you like to think about it or not (clearly you don't, you just maintain that these things never happened, we've been here before, that's a head-in-the-sand sort of pride).
Whatever you said above are not correct for the Turkish culture.
Quote:The "american identity" is a construct, and so is your "turkish identity". You have one set of rules for everyone else's identity and then a different set for your own? Again, garbage.
The american identity is a social construct. Our identity comes from our blood and history. When we think of our identity, we think of Motun Tanyu. We think of Bilge Khan, we think of Bashbugh Attila, we think of Ulugh Beg, we think of Evliya Chelebi, we think of the great archivements, conquests and expansions of the past. Our history and our blood is what creates our consciousness.
Your consciousness is created by your desires. The american dream. To be rich, to be famous, to own a Wii, to own an HD television, to own a car, home and other sorts of property. To make money in wall street. You are a heavily cosmopolitan society, your traditions and whatever culture that was responsible for the foundation of your country is lost to you. This is what capitalism has done for you, to shift your focus from cultural, intellectual and historical aspects to simply monetary and pragmatist aspects.
This is why family values, social welfare and general morality is in decline in your country.
Quote:The rest of this is likely to be a family fairy tale. Go get sequenced with your new-found wealth? How do you know what languages I can speak?
Of course, the one who has no such consciousness is likely to diss every proof I can provide as family fairy tales. Again, my views are strengthened by your posts. The ones of mixed blood despise the pure ones, and consistently try to insult family traditions and heritages by claiming that they are false. Don't worry. The same rings true for your counterparts in my country.
Quote:Pro-tip, you don't, and pro-tip...I can. Bullshit again
If you can, good for you.
But still does not disprove my point.
Quote:I actually refer to our president as "American", you're projecting. He's about as "black" as I am "white".
Ah, you do? And I can tell you that blacks probably vote for him because he's black, and some whites don't vote for him because he's not white.
No black refuses to vote for him because his mother is white, no white decides not to vote against him because his mother is white.
Hmmph. You are a nation of simplistic and superficial people.
Quote:Your vision of "Turan" is exactly what I perceive it to be, you just don't like to call it such because you have a special set of rules for whatever your own ethnicity does or deems it's "rights".
Yes, these are our rights by claims of history, blood and might.
If you want to contest these rights, provide your proof that you deserve the lands of Turan more than we do. Then we decide if it comes to blows.
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18th April 2012, 18:16 (This post was last modified: 18th April 2012 18:47 by Rhythm.)
Post: #32
  16k posts! 3 years membership!
RE: Nationalism and secularism
It would take me a lifetime to address all of the garbage you managed to cram into such a small post. This is understandable, because it's taken you a lifetime to build such a massive pile of trash. Let's try some cliffnotes-

Your turkish "ethnic identity" is a snapshot in time. A social construct. None of you are "from" turkey. Not a single one.

Where does what lead to me? My love of bluegrass? Courtesy of German and Irish immigrants. Okra, black eyed peas, fried chicken, hotsauce and crawdads? Take a wild guess. Like I said, melting pot. It all "leads to me".

You may not think that american culture is a combination of all the cultures that have gone into it, but that's likely due to your being completely ignorant of american culture and it's origins, instead deriving your ideas of our culture from movies....

The cultural institution of slavery in contradiction to our founding documents expressing equality extending all the way into Jim Crow, would be one example of where an "American thing" doesn't instill me with pride. "Manifest Destiny" and the trail of tears being another "american thing" that doesn't instill me with pride. The history of coal in Appalachia, "The War on Drugs, the War on Terror". It's not like we have any shortage of bullshit this side of the pond. Your culture is grand in the same way that our culture is grand, which is to say, sometimes not very grand at all. McDonald's barely registers on my list of american things to be proud or ashamed of, it's a fucking restaurant chain.... The difference here, is that I am capable of acknowledging that not everything we have done or do is something to be proud of, and especially not by virtue of some fairy tale about ethnicity and "noble blood". I can still be proud of those parts of our history that I feel were good examples of what it means to be american without pretending that the nasty shit didn't happen, or that simply because we have "american blood" we were somehow justified in doing these things.

It may not be true of turkish culture, but it is true of you, individually, and that's all I was commenting upon, wasn't it?

Yes, americans don't have any history or blood "creating their past"..lol, idiotic. Doner are delicious btw, a worthy contribution. I suppose you weren't aware that we have a political party of "tradition and family values", no worries, I guess you don't see that too often in movies. I don't have an HD TV, I don't have a Wii, I am not rich or famous, and I don';t desire any of these things. I do own a home, I do own property, are you actually criticizing this, because you seem to be all about it as long as the blood pumping through someones veins is turkish..... Seems to me that we're getting better about social welfare, not worse. I'm not sure why you think that the reasons my ancestors came here is lost on me, it's the entirety of what makes me "me". Family is as important to me and mine as it is to you and yours. The only reason you assume otherwise is that you are an ethnocentric bigot that believes that I am somehow less this-or-that than yourself by virtue of ancestry. Go fuck yourself.

I don't "despise the pure ones", I doubt that you are a "pure one", but this isn't my beef with you. My beef is that you're an ethnocentric bigot regardless of what story may lie in your blood.

What point? I wasn't aware that you actually had one.

Where are you sourcing your info on this (rhetorical, your own ass)?

Why would I want those lands, where have I made any claim to them? WTF are you talking about?
“I find something repulsive about the idea of vicarious redemption. I would not throw my numberless sins onto a scapegoat and expect them to pass from me" - Christopher Hitchens.
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Kudos given by (1): padraic
18th April 2012, 23:01
Post: #33
  4k posts! 2 years membership!
RE: Nationalism and secularism
Quote:It would take me a lifetime to address all of the garbage you managed to cram into such a small post. This is understandable, because it's taken you a lifetime to build such a massive pile of trash. Let's try some cliffnotes-
The garbage is all on your part, as you close your eyes to the truth.
Quote:Your turkish "ethnic identity" is a snapshot in time. A social construct. None of you are "from" turkey. Not a single one.
You don't even know what you're talking about, who said that the Turkish identity is built upon geographical origin? You talk, without knowing what exactly you're talking about. Not that you actually read my posts-you simply go over them while not trying to understand just what I'm trying to explain to you.
Quote:Where does what lead to me? My love of bluegrass? Courtesy of German and Irish immigrants. Okra, black eyed peas, fried chicken, hotsauce and crawdads? Take a wild guess. Like I said, melting pot. It all "leads to me".
It all leads to nowhere. The only thing you understand of belonging into a culture is still what I said it was. Foodstuff. You don't really read your children the Niebelungenlied, do you? You don't puff with pride when you talk of the Holy Roman Empire, or Prussia and the Kaiser.
Neither do you sing the old rebel songs of Patrick Pearse or Connoly, do you? I think that you are the perfect showcase of how the melting pot works.
It destroys old identities, creates a new one, where none of the other identities really have much of a presence other than things like food and place names.
Quote:You may not think that american culture is a combination of all the cultures that have gone into it, but that's likely due to your being completely ignorant of american culture and it's origins, instead deriving your ideas of our culture from movies....
No, this is not about movies, really. As your idea of what constitutes a culture is again, only very, very simplistic.
Besides, I don't think that American culture is a combination of all the cultures that have gone into it, because none, as a matter of fact, have gone into it.
Tell me, friend. How are the native american community, culturally active and represented amongst the American public?
How much do you know about native american culture beneath what you are told at thanksgiving? You eat turkey, and celebrate the peace between the pioneers and the natives, while you obviously do not share their culture, nor take part in their cultural observances.
Or, let's say, how much cultural representation do the Chinese, who have worked on your railroads, have in American daily life, besides the fake, unhealthy chinese food they feed you?
Or let's move on to Europe, we know that the old name of New York was New Amsterdam. How is the Dutch culture represented in this city?

Come to terms with it. American culture is not a culture that is a representative of ALL the cultures that had a part in it's foundation, or emigrated there later on. As a matter of fact, I believe that only a single culture played a significant part in the culture that dominates you now: The British culture of the time when the USA gained it's independence. From then on, it advanced seperately. This is why you all speak English, friend. Even your holidays are remnants of these days only. Thanksgiving, for example. Christmas for example, is celebrated in America only because the pioneers were all Christians. Blacks, on the other hand, have seen it fit to invent their own holiday from thin air, due to the fact they lost touch with their roots completely, Kwanza.
How does it come, that you claim to be a rainbow of cultures, while only importing what appears to be the exact of what I said?
The american dream, friend. People emigrate to your country just for that. And for that, they leave their identities behind.

Quote:The cultural institution of slavery in contradiction to our founding documents expressing equality extending all the way into Jim Crow, would be one example of where an "American thing" doesn't instill me with pride. "Manifest Destiny" and the trail of tears being another "american thing" that doesn't instill me with pride. The history of coal in Appalachia, "The War on Drugs, the War on Terror". It's not like we have any shortage of bullshit this side of the pond.
All of these are rather recent events, really. I don't know how these are supposed to be a part of a culture or tradition. It's simply a part of a history, not something that defines you, or your culture.

Quote:. Your culture is grand in the same way that our culture is grand,
Your culture...Is non-existent, friend. It has no history beyond of what culture the founders of your country had. And even that one doesn't thrive in America at all.
Quote:The difference here, is that I am capable of acknowledging that not everything we have done or do is something to be proud of,
So am I, friend. I acknowledge that the Ottoman sultans were wrong in marrying foreigners, tainting their blood with the foreigners...
I acknowledge the wrongs of Rugila, who split the Hunnic lands amongst his sons..I acknowledge the wrongs of the Uyghurs and Oghuzes by revolting against the Göktürks, and therebye weakening our presence in our ancestral lands...I am not proud of these events. In fact, I take an example of them, to how we should not act in the future.
Quote:and especially not by virtue of some fairy tale about ethnicity and "noble blood"
It is you, who are telling fairy tales, friend. You simply cannot grasp the concepts that you mentioned above. Therefore you diss them. Although, I don't really expect you to acknowledge our people, nor the noble blood that runs through our veins.
It is enough if we acknowledge our own noble blood, and try to be worthy of it.
If we do as you say, and simply state that we're no different than the foreigner, what keeps us from accepting his rule? This way of thinking has brought countless nations under our rule, and has brough it out of our rule. They began in believing in themselves. It is time we begin to believe in ourselves, in the blood that runs through our veins, friend.
Quote:I can still be proud of those parts of our history that I feel were good examples of what it means to be american without pretending that the nasty shit didn't happen, or that simply because we have "american blood" we were somehow justified in doing these things.
I think it's especially hard for you to think these things over. The reason that good examples within American history exist is only due to the bad examples that you just counted. If you did not bring about total destruction upon the natives of the land, if you did not start out as a simple british colony that used slaves to grow sugarcane or whatever they asked you to do, how would you actually develop as a different country anyways?
I think that by that accord, you shouldn't be proud of the good examples aswell. But here, individualism is the only place where you can look for refuge. You'll tell yourself that your ancestors were probably not present in America while those things happened, which they might or might have not been, and that you are not responsible for their actions. If so, how can you ever be proud of their archivements, at all?

Quote:It may not be true of turkish culture, but it is true of you, individually, and that's all I was commenting upon, wasn't it?
We do not justify our actions by the merit of blood. We justify our actions by spilling blood, friend. Ours, or the enemy. If something that we claim is ours, it either has our own blood, or our enemies blood on it.
This is the price we pay for things we lay our eyes on.

Quote:Yes, americans don't have any history or blood "creating their past"..lol, idiotic. Doner are delicious btw, a worthy contribution.
Contribution...Does this mean that Döner is now a part of American culture?
This is the only contribution you're going to get from any culture. Food...
Mainly because you probably have no real, national dishes that go beyond the dishes of regional dishes, mostly attributed to various other ethnic groups, still not *exclusively american*.
Quote:I suppose you weren't aware that we have a political party of "tradition and family values"
I would rather have it that all parties advocate tradition and family values.
If one party is not keen on upholding them, the other party eventually will. If you don't like the fact that they are trying to preserve the traditional family values that are mostly standart around the world, maybe you should start preserving them aswell.
Quote: no worries, I guess you don't see that too often in movies
In old American movies, mayhap. But Dallas probably gave the world a very wrong, or a very accurate depiction of how things go in America.
Quote: I don't have an HD TV, I don't have a Wii, I am not rich or famous, and I don';t desire any of these things.
Come on. Don't lie. I think you're lying yourself if you tell me that you don't desire a luxurious lifestyle. You don't own these things, but how do you think of being happy without them?
And you criticize traditional family values, so I guess having a family won't make you happy either. And you do not hope for an afterlife, or do not have strong ideals, and morals, bound by these ideals either.
So what really keeps you alive, friend? Do you live merely for the sake of living? I think that there is something you desire from this life, but you won't tell me what, exactly.
Quote: I do own a home, I do own property, are you actually criticizing this
No, I'm not. I'm just rephrasing what I've learned from you so far. That America is a nation bent on personal happiness by wealth and belongings.
Quote: because you seem to be all about it as long as the blood pumping through someones veins is turkish..
I didn't understand this post quite well.

Quote:Seems to me that we're getting better about social welfare, not worse.
That's great, but it still doesn't change the way things are expected to work in your country. Just the fact that welfare is met with such hostility in your country shows me that it is even weird to think of America as a nation at all...How can someone deny his underprivilaged countrymen the right to health care? Obviously there is something that keeps him from feeling mercy towards that person.
You do seem to have mercy, but again, why? I guess this is where the humanist ideology I strongly oppose comes in handy. It instills a feeling of mercy where mercy wouldn't thrive at all.
Quote: I'm not sure why you think that the reasons my ancestors came here is lost on me, it's the entirety of what makes me "me".
I think it is nothing that makes you, friend. You're already culturally assimilated into whatever identity the amazing social engineering in America was able to force on you, and I think the same was true for your parents. They only knew that they had an ancestor who was German, and one who was an Irishman. Like yourself, we know who we are.
Unlike you, we cherish in who we are, while your ethnic identity was stripped from you the day when your ancestors had laid their first step on the American continent.
Quote: Family is as important to me and mine as it is to you and yours.
Well, at least we've found something that you consider to be important. My previous question has been answered than. You're a family man.
Quote:The only reason you assume otherwise is that you are an ethnocentric bigot that believes that I am somehow less this-or-that than yourself by virtue of ancestry. Go fuck yourself.
I believe otherwise due to the examples I've seen amongst your kind. And even then, I have no real knowledge on what degree family holds an importance for you.
Quote:I don't "despise the pure ones", I doubt that you are a "pure one", but this isn't my beef with you. My beef is that you're an ethnocentric bigot regardless of what story may lie in your blood.
Your doubts are not really my concern. I do not doubt your mixedness, as you already told me. But you doubt the purity of my blood. Be my guest. It's just the internet.
Besides, I already told you that I have every right to be an ethnocentrist, while the world itself is ethnocentric. Who am I to tell the world to change it's ways? Not that I would even if I could, as things would certainly take a turn for the worse, if the world wouldn't have been the way it is.
Your beef is not with me, your beef is with the world.
Your beef is, that you live in a country that is defiant of the natural way things work around the earth. The only thing that saves you from collapsing like the others of your kind throughout history, i.e. multiethnic empires, is that you are on an isolated continent, with a bunch of immigrants who feel no native connection to the land.

Quote:Where are you sourcing your info on this (rhetorical, your own ass)?

Why would I want those lands, where have I made any claim to them? WTF are you talking about?
Which info would you like me to source?
Besides, I'll refer you to your own post:
Quote: because you have a special set of rules for whatever your own ethnicity does or deems it's "rights".
And I said:
Quote:Yes, these are our rights by claims of history, blood and might.
It is crystal clear. I was issuing an open challenge to anyone whom would say that our rights are not simply deemed our rights by words, like you'd probably would want to believe.
I guess I've answered your questions.
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18th April 2012, 23:04 (This post was last modified: 18th April 2012 23:19 by Rhythm.)
Post: #34
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RE: Nationalism and secularism
LOL, Yes Mehm, I do read my children fairy tales and hero stories from a variety of cultures, I do sing "rebel songs" very well, thanks for asking. I also...tell them american fairy tales, and sing bluegrass and southern gospel....... (bluegrass and "rebel songs" share the same instruments and melodies, they are directly related to each other, btw, southern gospel is devotional choir music with a fairly heavy influence from slave cultures...see, origins...) If I'm the perfect example of how the melting pot works you've got the melting pot all wrong brother.

Again, you managed to squeeze a ton of garbage into a tiny post.

Let's see.

Ethnocentic, ignorant, bigoted shit. Guess that about sums it up. You seem to have elaborate fairy tales about both your own blood and the blood of others (and all things connected to either concept, even if the connection exists only in your mind). I would say that this surprised me, but it doesn't. Your just-so stories of who and what others are are obviously very important to you, but I'm left wondering if their accuracy is equally as important. I'm thinking that it's not. This laundry list of complete bullshit is leveraged in service to your petty little bigotries, and as it seems to form the very core of who you are, it's unlikely that you would actually give a shit about whether or not you are full of shit. We're at an impasse aren't we?
“I find something repulsive about the idea of vicarious redemption. I would not throw my numberless sins onto a scapegoat and expect them to pass from me" - Christopher Hitchens.
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18th April 2012, 23:17 (This post was last modified: 18th April 2012 23:22 by kılıç_mehmet.)
Post: #35
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RE: Nationalism and secularism
(18th April 2012 23:04)Rhythm Wrote:  LOL, Yes Mehm, I do read my children fairy tales and hero stories from a variety of cultures, I do sing "rebel songs" very well, thanks for asking. I also...tell them american fairy tales, and sing bluegrass and southern gospel....... (bluegrass and "rebel songs" share the same instruments and melodies, they are directly related to each other, btw, southern gospel is devotional choir music with a fairly heavy influence from slave cultures...see, origins...) If I'm the perfect example of how the melting pot works you've got the melting pot all wrong brother.
I know that you're a prime example of how the melting pot works. Just like all other americans. The fact that you listen to bluegrass means that another american listens to bluegrass.
The fact that I listen to my own ethnic music doesn't mean that you will listen to that music, and you probably won't, but if I stay where you stay for as long as a few years, I will start to listen to bluegrass, and my children will start to listen bluegrass, while they won't listen to my own ethnic music at all.
This is what constitutes a melting pot, you see.
And I already said that American cultural accumulation starts from the point on from your foundation to the present day.
However, it still does not provide for a culture that can be compared to the cultures around the world. Yoghurt jokes aside, it is a derivation, as you said it.
However, it certainly does not accept much beyond what can be considered the main ingredients. And well, it still does not really trace itself back fully to the main ingredients at all. Your ethnic pride and consciousness are not of what you consider to be your ancestry. Unlike me, however. Although, it is not you, who is to blame for it. Neither can I do anything but to cherish my own culture. It is the way things work over here, and over there.
Quote:Again, you managed to squeeze a ton of garbage into a tiny post.
Have it your way. If you do not want to read my posts, tell me not to reply.
Quote:Ethnocentic, ignorant, bigoted shit. Guess that about sums it up. You seem to have elaborate fairy tales about both your own blood and the blood of others (and all things connected to either concept, even if the connection exists only in your mind). I would say that this surprised me, but it doesn't.
I guess you don't really want to understand what I'm trying to explain to you.
I guess it's hard to fill a cup that is already filled by things, irrelevant to the world that you live in.
If you do not want to accept historical facts as nothing more than fairy tales, just because you want to, be my guest.
We do not build an ideology on the basis of fairy tales. Such ideologies have crumbled to dust long ago, prime example, communism.
We, on the other hand, still stand strong.
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18th April 2012, 23:20 (This post was last modified: 18th April 2012 23:38 by Rhythm.)
Post: #36
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RE: Nationalism and secularism
Then why doesn't everyone listen to bluegrass Mehm? Why do I continue to listen to irish folk songs? I think you're full of shit...again. It seems to me that you are terrified that your "superior ethnic identity" would just melt away in the face of opposition or contact with any other culture. Well just how "superior" could it be then bud? You seem to be blissfully unawares that this is exactly how you ended up with your "turkish identity" in the first place.....Well, fear not my long lost cousin, people manage to hold onto the stories of the ancestors over here just as well as you hold onto them over there, sometimes their stories are as fanciful as your own.

I say you're a south african, just like the rest of us. You disagree, instead claiming that you are a "Turk" and that this actually means something. Well, if it does then so does "American" as you and I are in the same boat, both immigrants, neither of us ultimately "from" the place we now claim. Neither of us a pure specimen of anything at all beyond human beings.

Hey, do you know how to make a million bucks in the bluegrass scene? Start with two million bucks.
“I find something repulsive about the idea of vicarious redemption. I would not throw my numberless sins onto a scapegoat and expect them to pass from me" - Christopher Hitchens.
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18th April 2012, 23:46
Post: #37
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RE: Nationalism and secularism
(18th April 2012 23:20)Rhythm Wrote:  Then why doesn't everyone listen to bluegrass Mehm? Why do I continue to listen to irish folk songs? I think you're full of shit...again.

Hey, do you know how to make a million bucks in the bluegrass scene? Start with two million bucks.

Because I listen to irish folk songs. It's quite accessible to you, and to me.
So is bluegrass.

However, what I was trying to tell here, is that the popular music that exists in where you will emigrate, will eventually destroy your own.
Not everyone listens to bluegrass, but I'm sure everyone has listened to at least one Britney spears song.
Either voluntarily, or involuntarily.
Bluegrass is a regional popular variety.
However, irish ethnic music is done by irishmen in ireland, or by enthusiasts in other countries, but I'm quite sure that these are rather rare. And it's not a very popular type of music, unknown to people in say, United Arab Emirates, meaning, it's regional, it's *ethnic*, it belongs to an ethnicity.

Bluegrass is a regional variety of popular songs that were not popularized by the creeping American media around the earth and in your own country aswell.
Quote:It seems to me that you are terrified that your "superior ethnic identity" would just melt away in the face of opposition or contact with any other culture. Well just how "superior" could it be then bud? .
Well, if you do not protect your own culture from foreign influences, then it will eventually melt away. However, our culture thrived even with the influence of foreign cultures, and has eventually gotten the best of them.

Quote:You seem to be blissfully unawares that this is exactly how you ended up with your "turkish identity" in the first place....
I don't know just what you're trying to suggest, but this probably speaks true that our culture is indeed a superior one, in the case of what you think is true.
You shoot at your own leg, sonny.
But thankfully, you are wrong, the Turkish identity shares it's bonds with those who share a relationship of blood with it. Else, the slavic bosniak, called "Turk" by it's christian neighbors of the same blood for so long, would continue to call itself by this name, and they have adopted too much of our culture and even our religion.
Quote:I say you're a south african, just like the rest of us. You disagree, instead claiming that you are a "Turk" and that this actually means something.
South african doesn't really hint on an ethnicity. It simply presents a geographical location. The term *Turk* on the other hand, specifies of what ethnicity you are.
And yes, it does mean something. But I now know for sure that it means nothing to you, just as I said, and you denied it.
It's unfolding.
Quote:Well, if it does then so does "American" as you and I are in the same boat, both immigrants, neither of us ultimately "from" the place we now claim.
Are you reading what I'm writing down? I put no value on geographical Abstammung. The Turk from Turkey, and the Turk from Kazan are still nothing more than Turks, living miles away from eachother, while still being Turks.
Quote:Neither of us a pure specimen of anything at all beyond human beings.
Well, I guess that you don't really know what purity means.
I don't really have to explain things to you any further. You just don't listen anyways.
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19th April 2012, 00:06 (This post was last modified: 19th April 2012 00:20 by Rhythm.)
Post: #38
  16k posts! 3 years membership!
RE: Nationalism and secularism
Did you ever have to explain anything to an inferior human being? I'm guessing no. Which is convenient, because you are incapable of doing so anyway. You cant throw a rock and not hit an irish bar where I live. You know what you have to go out looking for though? Britney spears albums. I know, I know, it;s just so unbelievable! Maybe because you don't know wtf you're talking about....again.

Hey, I'm a Turk living in America, so we're kin too right? A turk is a turk is a turk isn't he, regardless of where he may be, or how far his family has wandered?

Rhythm McTurkleson.

Rhythm O'Turkelly.

Might it be possible that your stance with regards to geography is one you have assumed so that you might be able to claim that some folks in Turkey just arent "turkish enough" to be called turks. Might it be possible that you have assumed this stance because to propose otherwise would force you to afford the same consideration to "inferior peoples" whom you have excluded on the basis of the very same justifications you offer for those who you have included? Might it be possible that in this regard, your argument is completely full of shit?
“I find something repulsive about the idea of vicarious redemption. I would not throw my numberless sins onto a scapegoat and expect them to pass from me" - Christopher Hitchens.
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19th April 2012, 02:13 (This post was last modified: 19th April 2012 02:15 by Chuck.)
Post: #39
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RE: Nationalism and secularism
(19th April 2012 00:06)Rhythm Wrote:  Did you ever have to explain anything to an inferior human being?

Human beings more inferior than him, yet still possessing the power of language, would be hard to find.

The norwegian jackal that slaughtered 77 of his own country's youth so as to protect the culture of his own country from the influences of foreign elements might be one.
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19th April 2012, 10:44 (This post was last modified: 19th April 2012 10:54 by kılıç_mehmet.)
Post: #40
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RE: Nationalism and secularism
(19th April 2012 02:13)Chuck Wrote:  
(19th April 2012 00:06)Rhythm Wrote:  Did you ever have to explain anything to an inferior human being?

Human beings more inferior than him, yet still possessing the power of language, would be hard to find.

The norwegian jackal that slaughtered 77 of his own country's youth so as to protect the culture of his own country from the influences of foreign elements might be one.

Breivik did that to compel copycats to surface, maybe. I would have chosen a different target, like a newspaper, or a higher ranking politician.
But he especially targeted teenagers(with norwegians amongst them), to perhaps get the public's attention more than usually. In a country like Norway, this should make head news practically every day, I guess.
Quote:Did you ever have to explain anything to an inferior human being?
Yes, of course.

Quote:Which is convenient, because you are incapable of doing so anyway. You cant throw a rock and not hit an irish bar where I live.
And this qualifies you as culturally Irish, I guess. Pffft. There are döner shops all around in Berlin. Yet most Turks are sadly ignorant about their culture. They just call themselves Turks, but a few generations later, I'm sure that will vanish aswell. This is the way things work. Multiculturalism is a dead street. Every country seeks to unite it's citizens under a common culture.
The fact that you have irish pubs doesn't change that fact.

Quote:You know what you have to go out looking for though? Britney spears albums.
Why? Do you really like her songs? I'm sure a torrent search would do you better.
Quote:I know, I know, it;s just so unbelievable! Maybe because you don't know wtf you're talking about....again.
It is, actually. It baffles me why someone would want to buy an album of that poor sod.
But I certainly know what I'm talking about.
Quote:Hey, I'm a Turk living in America, so we're kin too right? A turk is a turk is a turk isn't he, regardless of where he may be, or how far his family has wandered?
If you were a Turk, I would treat you as my kin.
But if you were not a Turk, I would not.
If you had foreign blood within your veins, that it would taint your ethnic consciousness, say, within the last two-three generations, I would not consider you to be a Turk, even if you came before me and recited the Orkhun inscriptions in full.
To be a Turk, requires you to have a single, full ethnic conscience, and a full Turkish blood from each of your parents.
Quote:Might it be possible that your stance with regards to geography is one you have assumed so that you might be able to claim that some folks in Turkey just arent "turkish enough" to be called turks.
No. There are people who are Turks, there are people who are not Turks.
For example, Circassians are not Turks. Tatars, on the other hand, are Turks. Nogais, are Turks. Turkmen are Turks. Turks living in Iran, as their name implies, are Turks.
Azerbaijanis, are Turks.
Really, there isn't much to be said about this.

And well, there are people, whom I call ethnic minorities, that are not Turks. Ask them, and they will tell you that they are not Turks. Who am I to claim that they are? I am not a communist to force an identity on the top of another. I'm no communist to suggest cultural assimilation.
This country is not America, that we claim others to be Turks while they're not. Sadly, the past of our country has seen such attempts, all failures, that we know that the assimilation of minorities is impossible.
They are also very keen on preserving their own blood-it's rare I come across any mixed blood people, and those who I come across typically showcase the characteristics that you exhibit. The hostility towards the concept of pure blood, the hostility towards the concept of Turan, the hostility towards Turks from other geographical locations(i.e. that our supposed real friends are our non-turkish geographical neighbors, which is a lie), hostility towards Turkish nationalists, all the while claiming to be "nationalists" themselves. I don't know how one can be a nationalist, while damning everything related to that nation. Their nationalism mostly close to patriotism, maybe. They are loyal to the country they live in, but not loyal to the people that constitute the majority of this country. And frankly, I don't expect much else from them. As long as they respect our rights of sovereignity, and do not push for their own national rights, I have no problem with ethnic minorities, or peoples of mixed ancestry.


Quote:Might it be possible that you have assumed this stance because to propose otherwise would force you to afford the same consideration to "inferior peoples" whom you have excluded on the basis of the very same justifications you offer for those who you have included? Might it be possible that in this regard, your argument is completely full of shit?
There is nothing else to assume. There is no such thing as "enough" or "not enough Turkish". You're either a Turk, or you're not. It's as simple as that, friend. Besides, to propose otherwise would generally nullify the idea of Turan, if I only considered the Turks that live in Turkey to be Turks, I'd be excluding the Turks that live outside of our borders.

But I'll just state this, the concept of accepting the Turks outside of Turkey of our own is a fundamental concept in our ideology. The founder of this ideology himself, was a Tatar Turk from Kazan, then, a part of Czarist Russia. I, myself, come from a family of immigrants from Crimea and Balkans, and were not natives of the present day Turkey. Our founder, Atatürk, was born in the Balkans, and was not native to present day Turkey.
However, this was the beauty of our country. Turks from all across the globe could come here for sanctuary, as it was the only free Turkish soil that was left at the end of the WWI.
For that piece we have fought, for that piece we have died.
As a Turkmen proverb states: "Birlik barda, tirlik bar!"
Where there is unity, there is strength. This unity shall be amongst all Turks in the world. Into a single, powerful nation. Then we will strive to be the greatest amongst all nations.
And I know that we will succeed, as our founder Atatürk states:"The strength you need is present within the noble blood that flows in your veins!".
[Image: trkdevletbayraklar.jpg]

Üze Tengri basmasar, asra Yir telinmeser, Türük bodun ilingin törüngin kim artatı udaçı erti?
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