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RE: Convert me!
September 1, 2012 at 5:12 pm
(This post was last modified: September 1, 2012 at 5:23 pm by Simon Moon.)
(September 1, 2012 at 4:49 pm)Penhorse340 Wrote: Even if you believe there is no shred of truth in religion, are you seriously contending that nobody has ever had benefit in their life from believing in religion? No alcoholics have even used religion to rehab? No bereaved people have ever been comforted by it? I thought sweeping soundbites like that were the preserve of theists!
i don't think there are many here that don't understand that people are; comforted by their religious beliefs, claim to change their lives because of religious beliefs, or receive other claimed benefits.
The question is, which is better at describing reality?
If you or other theists want to believe because it gives you a warm fuzzy feeling, go ahead, As long as you don't try to force them on others, have at it.
But the bottom line is, faith based belief is not another source for knowledge.
You'd believe if you just opened your heart" is a terrible argument for religion. It's basically saying, "If you bias yourself enough, you can convince yourself that this is true." If religion were true, people wouldn't need faith to believe it -- it would be supported by good evidence.
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RE: Convert me!
September 1, 2012 at 5:16 pm
Colonel Robert Ingersoll Wrote:Give me the storm and stress of thought and action rather than the dead calm of ignorance and faith. Banish me from Eden when you will but first let me eat of the fruit of the Tree of Knowledge.
May be going off on a slight tangent but seemed to fit.
At the age of five, Skagra decided emphatically that God did not exist. This revelation tends to make most people in the universe who have it react in one of two ways - with relief or with despair. Only Skagra responded to it by thinking, 'Wait a second. That means there's a situation vacant.'
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RE: Convert me!
September 1, 2012 at 5:27 pm
(This post was last modified: September 1, 2012 at 5:28 pm by Simon Moon.)
(September 1, 2012 at 5:16 pm)Stimbo Wrote: Colonel Robert Ingersoll Wrote:Give me the storm and stress of thought and action rather than the dead calm of ignorance and faith. Banish me from Eden when you will but first let me eat of the fruit of the Tree of Knowledge.
May be going off on a slight tangent but seemed to fit.
Great quote.
I don't think it's going off topic, since the OP was asking if there was something in atheism that would replace, "An easy answer to lifes hard questions, a(broadly) functional moral code to live by, and something to cuddle when I get afraid of the dark (metaphysically speaking)".
You'd believe if you just opened your heart" is a terrible argument for religion. It's basically saying, "If you bias yourself enough, you can convince yourself that this is true." If religion were true, people wouldn't need faith to believe it -- it would be supported by good evidence.
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RE: Convert me!
September 1, 2012 at 5:31 pm
Penhorse340 Wrote:Even if you believe there is no shred of truth in religion, are you seriously contending that nobody has ever had benefit in their life from believing in religion?
People have also benefited from taking sugar pills. What would you think of a doctor that prescribed them for an illness?
Even if the open windows of science at first make us shiver after the cozy indoor warmth of traditional humanizing myths, in the end the fresh air brings vigor, and the great spaces have a splendor of their own - Bertrand Russell
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RE: Convert me!
September 1, 2012 at 5:36 pm
Surely if the placebo effect is the only potentially-verifiable positive benefit to a religion, we can get rid of all the rituals and the costumes, all the gold and iconography, all the magic and the worship and the chanting? All we need is the platitudes to those judged to be in need of them and let them work their own magic.
At the age of five, Skagra decided emphatically that God did not exist. This revelation tends to make most people in the universe who have it react in one of two ways - with relief or with despair. Only Skagra responded to it by thinking, 'Wait a second. That means there's a situation vacant.'
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RE: Convert me!
September 1, 2012 at 5:40 pm
(September 1, 2012 at 5:31 pm)Faith No More Wrote: Penhorse340 Wrote:Even if you believe there is no shred of truth in religion, are you seriously contending that nobody has ever had benefit in their life from believing in religion?
People have also benefited from taking sugar pills. What would you think of a doctor that prescribed them for an illness?
I'd double check his credentials incase hes a skittles PR man in disguise.
"That is not dead which can eternal lie and with strange aeons even death may die."
- Abdul Alhazred.
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RE: Convert me!
September 1, 2012 at 5:45 pm
(August 31, 2012 at 5:12 pm)Penhorse340 Wrote: Ok, here's my problem. I'm a Christian. I'm not mad keen on most other christians, we seem to attract more than our share of dicks. I'm downright embarrassed by mainstream christianities attempts at science. The bible seems to me full of contradiction and irrationality.
But here's the thing, religion offers something. An easy answer to lifes hard questions, a(broadly) functional moral code to live by, and something to cuddle when I get afraid of the dark (metaphysically speaking). I've heard religion described as a crutch and I think that's true. If I decide not to believe in god any longer, to throw away the crutch are there any upsides to replace all that stuff?
Religion like politics offers nothing but empty promises and non existent utopias. Reality is that we are the same species and have always had the same ups and downs and childishly fought over labels because we want to be the alpha male. What better way to sell that crap than to convince those around you that you are special?
Do you really think that Christianity, or Islam or Communism or capitalism will save humanity after our planet dies, after the sun dies?
What humans have, the only thing we have is now, in our common condition. Our personal wishes will never change our finite existence. If we wish to extend the ride, the only ride any of us have, the last thing we should focus on is our own self centered fantasies.
The clubs will exist, but if we wish to have peace, the priority can only be what we have in common, not what we don't have in common.
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RE: Convert me!
September 1, 2012 at 7:45 pm
(This post was last modified: September 1, 2012 at 7:50 pm by Napoléon.)
(September 1, 2012 at 4:49 pm)Penhorse340 Wrote: Oh and "science trumps religion every fucking time" is frankly a dumb thing to say. Even if you believe there is no shred of truth in religion, are you seriously contending that nobody has ever had benefit in their life from believing in religion? No alcoholics have even used religion to rehab? No bereaved people have ever been comforted by it? I thought sweeping soundbites like that were the preserve of theists!
I was talking specifically about science trumping religion within the realms of what constitutes as truth; which if you actually followed what I said was fairly obvious. You took it to mean something completely different to what I was actually talking about.
(September 1, 2012 at 5:12 pm)Simon Moon Wrote: The question is, which is better at describing reality?
If you or other theists want to believe because it gives you a warm fuzzy feeling, go ahead, As long as you don't try to force them on others, have at it.
But the bottom line is, faith based belief is not another source for knowledge.
Simon Moon, put it into words better than I could.
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RE: Convert me!
September 2, 2012 at 2:39 am
(August 31, 2012 at 5:12 pm)Penhorse340 Wrote: Ok, here's my problem. I'm a Christian. I'm not mad keen on most other christians, we seem to attract more than our share of dicks. I'm downright embarrassed by mainstream christianities attempts at science. The bible seems to me full of contradiction and irrationality.
But here's the thing, religion offers something. An easy answer to lifes hard questions, a(broadly) functional moral code to live by, and something to cuddle when I get afraid of the dark (metaphysically speaking). I've heard religion described as a crutch and I think that's true. If I decide not to believe in god any longer, to throw away the crutch are there any upsides to replace all that stuff?
Seems to me, for your life you have chosen Christianity as a crutch to hide from life, that's sad you know. You can not find in scripture that God is to be used as a crutch and Jesus taught that we are not exempted from the troubles of life, what He said was this, He would be there as a friend to always go through life with us hard parts and good parts.
If you think scriptures are bogus then why would you choose Christianity over other beliefs, if the first three chapters of Genesis are not true then all scripture is questionable. This would make God untrustworthy and in that my friend you should truly find yourself in a situation of discomfort.
God loves those who believe and those who do not and the same goes for me, you have no choice in this matter. That puts the matter of total free will to rest.
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RE: Convert me!
September 2, 2012 at 4:11 am
(This post was last modified: September 2, 2012 at 4:13 am by Penhorse340.)
(September 1, 2012 at 5:31 pm)Faith No More Wrote: Penhorse340 Wrote:Even if you believe there is no shred of truth in religion, are you seriously contending that nobody has ever had benefit in their life from believing in religion?
People have also benefited from taking sugar pills. What would you think of a doctor that prescribed them for an illness?
A perfect analogy.
Placebos work (sometimes for something's). I can show you an rct in which a placebo scores a 40% improvement in chronic LBP and another in which they shrink stomach ulcers. What do I think of drs and paramedicals who use them? It depends. If they understand how their placebos work I admire them greatly. If they don't, and actually believe that for eg homeopathy works by some means beside psychosomatic, then I think they need a severe slapping.
As to the paraphernalia of religion, do a little research into placebos and you'll find the paraphernalia is an integral part. A saline injection works better than a sugar pill. For some things of course. Religion, like placebos, can be dangerous if applied injudiciously. One should not use placebo to treat malaria and one should not use religion to influence science or politics. Time and a place.
"If you think scriptures are bogus then why would you choose Christianity over other beliefs, if the first three chapters of Genesis are not true then all scripture is questionable. This would make God untrustworthy and in that my friend you should truly find yourself in a situation of discomfort."
Nah. Leave alone the fact that it's perfectly easy to interpret gen 1-3 in a variety of ways, why should some of the bible being "bogus" mean that all of it is? Baby and bathwater springs to mind.
(September 1, 2012 at 5:12 pm)Simon Moon Wrote: (September 1, 2012 at 4:49 pm)Penhorse340 Wrote: Even if you believe there is no shred of truth in religion, are you seriously contending that nobody has ever had benefit in their life from believing in religion? No alcoholics have even used religion to rehab? No bereaved people have ever been comforted by it? I thought sweeping soundbites like that were the preserve of theists!
i don't think there are many here that don't understand that people are; comforted by their religious beliefs, claim to change their lives because of religious beliefs, or receive other claimed benefits.
The question is, which is better at describing reality?
If you or other theists want to believe because it gives you a warm fuzzy feeling, go ahead, As long as you don't try to force them on others, have at it. indeed. Religion is like a penis. It's great to have one, to be proud of it and great to enjoy it, but annoying when you try to ram it down other people's throats!
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