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Virtually no historian doubts his existence. As Graham Clark and Craig Blomberg put it; the documentary evidence is simply overwhelming. Graham Clark isn't a Christian either
Link to interview with Craig Blomberg as he answers some the questions over the evidence
The gospel accounts are treated as historical biographies, written unprecedentedly early for documents of the time, containing eye witness accounts or other sources. Pauls letters have been dated earlier than the gospels and contain core elements of the Christian faith. Paul got these from others. There was a core of Christianity within a year or 2 of Jesus's reported death and resurrection. It was born and rose very quickly and for it to do so based on a man who never existed is unheard of in history. As C.F.D Moule puts it;
"The birth and rapid rise of Christianity remains an enigma for any historian not willing to take seriously the only explanation on offer by the church itself.
I'll come to the resurrection later.
I have no problems with the theory of evolution or the big bang theory. Neither of them disprove God in anyway as they are 2 different types of explanation. I'm not a young earth creationist btw.
(September 14, 2012 at 4:58 am)Grazer501 Wrote: I'm Grazer and I've been a Christian for just over 3 years. Main interests are science & religion and the historical evidence for the new testament. When I'm not looking at these I'm playing darts and about to start training for the 3 peaks challenge I'm hoping to do next year.
Will be here periodically but any questions please ask
(September 14, 2012 at 8:51 am)Grazer501 Wrote: Dumac
Virtually no historian doubts his existence. As Graham Clark and Craig Blomberg put it; the documentary evidence is simply overwhelming. Graham Clark isn't a Christian either
Link to interview with Craig Blomberg as he answers some the questions over the evidence
The gospel accounts are treated as historical biographies, written unprecedentedly early for documents of the time, containing eye witness accounts or other sources. Pauls letters have been dated earlier than the gospels and contain core elements of the Christian faith. Paul got these from others. There was a core of Christianity within a year or 2 of Jesus's reported death and resurrection. It was born and rose very quickly and for it to do so based on a man who never existed is unheard of in history. As C.F.D Moule puts it;
"The birth and rapid rise of Christianity remains an enigma for any historian not willing to take seriously the only explanation on offer by the church itself.
I'll come to the resurrection later.
I have no problems with the theory of evolution or the big bang theory. Neither of them disprove God in anyway as they are 2 different types of explanation. I'm not a young earth creationist btw.
You can't prove he's real or not. When are you guys going to get that. It's impossible for humans right now. You can only assume he is or it isn't. So please spare yourself the humiliation of putting up your so called evidence.
September 14, 2012 at 9:07 am (This post was last modified: September 14, 2012 at 9:08 am by Lion IRC.)
(September 14, 2012 at 7:42 am)greneknight Wrote:
(September 14, 2012 at 7:24 am)Grazer501 Wrote: That's a popular reaction from atheists when this gets mentioned.
Hi Grazer,
Welcome!!! I'm a Christian and an altar boy too. But I don't accept that there is any evidence or rational argument for the faith. I love doing debates and Tiberius, the chief here, just told me that there is a formal debate in AF and I'm going to debate with Godschild (a devout Christian) and I'll be arguing that the Bible contains untruths, falsehoods and even deliberate lies. If you like to do debates, do let me know.
I'm also exploring my own faith and who knows, I might be converted to become a believing Christian.
September 14, 2012 at 9:22 am (This post was last modified: September 14, 2012 at 9:24 am by Dumac Dwarfking.)
(September 14, 2012 at 8:51 am)Grazer501 Wrote: Dumac
Virtually no historian doubts his existence.
My apologies, I can see what you got from what I said. I am not denying the existence of Jesus as a person, what I don't believe is that he is the son of God.
(September 14, 2012 at 8:51 am)Grazer501 Wrote: The gospel accounts are treated as historical biographies, written unprecedentedly early for documents of the time, containing eye witness accounts or other sources. Pauls letters have been dated earlier than the gospels and contain core elements of the Christian faith. Paul got these from others. There was a core of Christianity within a year or 2 of Jesus's reported death and resurrection. It was born and rose very quickly and for it to do so based on a man who never existed is unheard of in history. As C.F.D Moule puts it;
The gospels were written at least thirty years after the supposed resurrection of Jesus. The only other reference to it is from Paul in 1 Corinthians twenty years after the event. As well as this, the books were written by anonymousGreek Christians, not eyewitnesses. Paul himself testifies as not being witness to it. The actual followers of Jesus were Aramaic speaking peasants from Galilee. Stories of Jesus and his resurrection had been in circulation for 30 years before anyone wrote about it, plenty of time for facts to become skewed by misinterpretations and exaggerations, as is evidenced by different accounts of how it happened in each gospel. Just a few quick examples, can you tell me what day Jesus died? Can you tell me if both robbers mocked Jesus or only one? Did Mary go alone to Jesus's tomb or with other women?
There are numerous discrepancies.
(September 14, 2012 at 8:51 am)Grazer501 Wrote: I have no problems with the theory of evolution or the big bang theory. Neither of them disprove God in anyway as they are 2 different types of explanation. I'm not a young earth creationist btw.
I've met quite a few Christians who share your view, but then you would have to admit that the accounts that the bible gives about the origin of the world is entirely untrue, how do you justify that?
If your creationist stuff really did mesh with evolution, then your god is not perfect, or a bit thick. For creation to sit right with evolution, it means your god created creatures that were not suited to their environments - otherwise, why would you need to evolve? So the abrahamic "my god is perfect" creationism does not mesh with evolution, but a passive creator, or one that had a few screws loose, could hypothetically create a world that required evolution.
If more of us valued food and cheer and song above hoarded gold, it would be a merrier world. - J.R.R Tolkien
(September 14, 2012 at 5:15 am)Grazer501 Wrote: I'm looking to see and understand more about why people believe what they do. Before I was a Christian, I considered myself as an atheist.
Welcome to the forum.
*opens can*
So when you were an atheist, you:
• Believed that ALL religions were contrived by men, and ALL were works of fiction
• Could not accept the claims made by religious people or their “holy” books
• Believed that religious people, of all “faiths” were misguided at best, and delusional at worst
• Believed that physical reality was all that there was, and stories of “creation”, deities, spirits, angels, demons, souls, etc., were merely fantasies
And then somehow you became convinced that Christianity was no longer to be grouped as a falsehood with all other religions, because it is actually the one religion that is true. That the god you now “believe in” is in fact real, and that he really did create the universe, and that he really does rule over it. That angels, demons, spirits, etc., are truly real. And that after your death you will be resurrected and you will live forever in the presence of this god.
For some reason, I don’t believe you were ever an atheist, and you are making that claim as some lame attempt at an appeal to authority. I say bullshit.
*closes can*
"If there are gaps they are in our knowledge, not in things themselves." Chapman Cohen
"Shit-apples don't fall far from the shit-tree, Randy." Mr. Lahey
(September 14, 2012 at 5:15 am)Grazer501 Wrote: I'm looking to see and understand more about why people believe what they do. Before I was a Christian, I considered myself as an atheist.
Welcome to the forum.
*opens can*
So when you were an atheist, you:
• Believed that ALL religions were contrived by men, and ALL were works of fiction
• Could not accept the claims made by religious people or their “holy” books
• Believed that religious people, of all “faiths” were misguided at best, and delusional at worst
• Believed that physical reality was all that there was, and stories of “creation”, deities, spirits, angels, demons, souls, etc., were merely fantasies
And then somehow you became convinced that Christianity was no longer to be grouped as a falsehood with all other religions, because it is actually the one religion that is true. That the god you now “believe in” is in fact real, and that he really did create the universe, and that he really does rule over it. That angels, demons, spirits, etc., are truly real. And that after your death you will be resurrected and you will live forever in the presence of this god.
For some reason, I don’t believe you were ever an atheist, and you are making that claim as some lame attempt at an appeal to authority. I say bullshit.
• Believed that ALL religions were contrived by men, and ALL were works of fiction
• Could not accept the claims made by religious people or their “holy” books
• Believed that religious people, of all “faiths” were misguided at best, and delusional at worst
• Believed that physical reality was all that there was, and stories of “creation”, deities, spirits, angels, demons, souls, etc., were merely fantasies
And then somehow you became convinced that Christianity was no longer to be grouped as a falsehood with all other religions, because it is actually the one religion that is true. That the god you now “believe in” is in fact real, and that he really did create the universe, and that he really does rule over it. That angels, demons, spirits, etc., are truly real. And that after your death you will be resurrected and you will live forever in the presence of this god.
For some reason, I don’t believe you were ever an atheist, and you are making that claim as some lame attempt at an appeal to authority. I say bullshit.
*closes can*
Was that a can of whoop-ass?
Nah, just my canned retort to every dipshit that comes here spewing their "I used to be an atheist like you until I became enlightened" bullshit.
"If there are gaps they are in our knowledge, not in things themselves." Chapman Cohen
"Shit-apples don't fall far from the shit-tree, Randy." Mr. Lahey
(September 14, 2012 at 9:22 am)Dumac Dwarfking Wrote:
(September 14, 2012 at 8:51 am)Grazer501 Wrote: Dumac
Virtually no historian doubts his existence.
My apologies, I can see what you got from what I said. I am not denying the existence of Jesus as a person, what I don't believe is that he is the son of God.
(September 14, 2012 at 8:51 am)Grazer501 Wrote: The gospel accounts are treated as historical biographies, written unprecedentedly early for documents of the time, containing eye witness accounts or other sources. Pauls letters have been dated earlier than the gospels and contain core elements of the Christian faith. Paul got these from others. There was a core of Christianity within a year or 2 of Jesus's reported death and resurrection. It was born and rose very quickly and for it to do so based on a man who never existed is unheard of in history. As C.F.D Moule puts it;
The gospels were written at least thirty years after the supposed resurrection of Jesus. The only other reference to it is from Paul in 1 Corinthians twenty years after the event. As well as this, the books were written by anonymousGreek Christians, not eyewitnesses. Paul himself testifies as not being witness to it. The actual followers of Jesus were Aramaic speaking peasants from Galilee. Stories of Jesus and his resurrection had been in circulation for 30 years before anyone wrote about it, plenty of time for facts to become skewed by misinterpretations and exaggerations, as is evidenced by different accounts of how it happened in each gospel. Just a few quick examples, can you tell me what day Jesus died? Can you tell me if both robbers mocked Jesus or only one? Did Mary go alone to Jesus's tomb or with other women?
There are numerous discrepancies.
(September 14, 2012 at 8:51 am)Grazer501 Wrote: I have no problems with the theory of evolution or the big bang theory. Neither of them disprove God in anyway as they are 2 different types of explanation. I'm not a young earth creationist btw.
I've met quite a few Christians who share your view, but then you would have to admit that the accounts that the bible gives about the origin of the world is entirely untrue, how do you justify that?
By starting with whether Genesis is meant as a scientific treatise and/or an historical account, the culture within which it was written, the time it was written, basically into biblical interpretation/hermeneutics
