The Lie of Modern "Centrism"

[Tiberius]

If there is something most people can agree on, it's electoral reform. For those interested, here are two very good videos about why the electoral college system sucks:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OUS9mM8Xbbw

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7wC42HgLA4k

[Minimalist]

If there is something most people can agree on, it's electoral reform.

As long as the "reform" benefits their party!

[Cyberman]

It's probably rather unlikely that the election systems already in place will be reformed, at least anytime soon. There aren't many governments prepared to kick away the ladder that put them there.

Interesting aside re: the AV system. We in this septic isle are (or were, if I've slept through it) to be given a chance to vote on whether we want to adopt this new system or keep the present first-past-the-post one. The ballots will then be counted and the winner to be used to guide policy (at least nominally, says my inner cynic). In other words, the first-past-the-post system that is apparently so badly in need of reform.

[DeistPaladin]

Regarding your claim of a festival of lies, please cite one thing that you considered to be a lie and let's discuss it.

We can go through the whole speech if you like.

First, here's the footage so everything can be in context.





Now the first 5 1/2 minutes are the usual blather found in speeches like this in both conventions. Go to 5:35 to hear him speak bring up the first issue of substance: The Janesville Plant and how this is an example of the "failure" of Obama's efforts to turn around the economy (that Republicans wrecked by-the-by).

This is the first bit of substance in the speech and it is a lie by implication. The Janesville plant closed in December of 2008, before Obama even took office.

We'll wade through more of the speech if you like.

[Tino]

Regarding your claim of a festival of lies, please cite one thing that you considered to be a lie and let's discuss it.

We can go through the whole speech if you like.

First, here's the footage so everything can be in context.





Now the first 5 1/2 minutes are the usual blather found in speeches like this in both conventions. Go to 5:35 to hear him speak bring up the first issue of substance: The Janesville Plant and how this is an example of the "failure" of Obama's efforts to turn around the economy (that Republicans wrecked by-the-by).

This is the first bit of substance in the speech and it is a lie by implication. The Janesville plant closed in December of 2008, before Obama even took office.

We'll wade through more of the speech if you like.

Here's what Obama said:

"And I believe that if our government is there to support you, and give you the assistance you need to re-tool and make this transition, that this plant will be here for another hundred years. The question is not whether a clean energy economy is in our future, it’s where it will thrive. I want it to thrive right here in the United States of America; right here in Wisconsin; and that’s the future I’ll fight for as your president."

Doesn't it sound like he's saying that if he's elected, he'll work to keep the plant open for a long time?

Now to the (not really the point) issue of when the plant "closed."

The local paper, The News and the Gazette reported that the plant didn't close fully until April 2009. Here's a timeline:

June 2008: GM announces that the Janesville plant will stop production of medium-duty trucks by the end of 2009, and stop production of large SUVs such as the Chevy Tahoe and Suburban and the GMC Yukon in 2010 or sooner, depending on market demand.

December 23, 2008: SUV production ends, and more than 2,000 GM workers are laid off, according to the Gazette. Medium truck production continues.

January 20, 2009, Obama takes office as President. The laid-off employees have been out of work for less than 30 days. The plant is still there, ready to go. Obama does nothing.

April 23, 2009: Three month's after Obama takes office, the plant's medium-duty assembly line, which produced an Isuzu line, closes, ending vehicle production at the plant and resulting in the loss of 57 production jobs, according to the Gazette. Obama is in office when this happens, still does nothing.

GM then put the plant on standby, meaning it could reactivate the facility if it decides it needs to ramp up production.

Obama's in office, where is Obama's leadership to keep the plant here for another 100 years? Nowhere. So Ryan's point that this is an example of Obama's failure is valid. What else would you like to cover?

[DeistPaladin]

Gee, and here I am going by information I'm getting from some fly-by-night media source like the Washington Post. But of course you already knew that because I'd linked to that article earlier.

Here's a snipet from that article if you don't want to click the link (bold emphasis mine).

In short, the Janesville shutdown commenced in June 2008. Once it was clear that aid wasn’t forthcoming in November, actual assembly lines were being shut down by December. It is true that Paul Ryan tried to get the Obama administration to save another plant, in Kenosha, which the Obama administration failed to do. Attacking Obama for that is fair. But hitting him for Janesville is dishonest. The first assembly line stopped rolling in December 2008. Workers unfurled banners declaring the “Last Vehicles Off the Janesville Line” at a “final goodbye ceremony,” The plant was closing regardless of what Obama did.
This is a very strange dispute, in a way. Mitt Romney wrote an op-ed in the New York Times under the title “Let Detroit Go Bankrupt,” and now his campaign is trying hard to fault Obama for not bailing out automakers aggressively enough. Not only that, but after the campaign’s repeated denunciation of the Obama administration for “picking winners,” Ryan is faulting Obama for not “picking a winner” not just among companies, but among plants. He’s attacking Obama for not using the government to micromanage GM’s affairs.

I'm sure your sources are far more reliable than The Washington Post. Feel free to link to those sources when you can.

More of Ryan's lies to come as I wade through more of his speech...

[Tino]

Gee, and here I am going by information I'm getting from some fly-by-night media source like the Washington Post. But of course you already knew that because I'd linked to that article earlier.

Here's a snipet from that article if you don't want to click the link (bold emphasis mine).

In short, the Janesville shutdown commenced in June 2008. Once it was clear that aid wasn’t forthcoming in November, actual assembly lines were being shut down by December. It is true that Paul Ryan tried to get the Obama administration to save another plant, in Kenosha, which the Obama administration failed to do. Attacking Obama for that is fair. But hitting him for Janesville is dishonest. The first assembly line stopped rolling in December 2008. Workers unfurled banners declaring the “Last Vehicles Off the Janesville Line” at a “final goodbye ceremony,” The plant was closing regardless of what Obama did.
This is a very strange dispute, in a way. Mitt Romney wrote an op-ed in the New York Times under the title “Let Detroit Go Bankrupt,” and now his campaign is trying hard to fault Obama for not bailing out automakers aggressively enough. Not only that, but after the campaign’s repeated denunciation of the Obama administration for “picking winners,” Ryan is faulting Obama for not “picking a winner” not just among companies, but among plants. He’s attacking Obama for not using the government to micromanage GM’s affairs.

I'm sure your sources are far more reliable than The Washington Post. Feel free to link to those sources when you can.

More of Ryan's lies to come as I wade through more of his speech...

---

Gee, and here I am going by information I'm getting from some fly-by-night media source like the Washington Post. But of course you already knew that because I'd linked to that article earlier.

Here's a snipet from that article if you don't want to click the link (bold emphasis mine).


I'm sure your sources are far more reliable than The Washington Post. Feel free to link to those sources when you can.

More of Ryan's lies to come as I wade through more of his speech...

You accepted liberal-leaning sources as your fact checkers and you were mislead by them. When I heard the accusations that Ryan had lied about it I looked into it myself, and as mentioned above, went to the local paper. The Gazette paper reported on the activity at the GM plant as it was happening, in 2008 and 2009, before anyone knew this would be an issue. Yes I consider this a more reliable source than the left-leaning Washington Post's story three years later when it knows the story is a controversy. Here is a link to one of many articles that discuss the plant closing in April of 2009, months after Obama has taken office.

http://gazettextra.com/weblogs/latest-ne...lose-week/

Please retract your statement that Ryan lied about this.

[DeistPaladin]

The media does not have a liberal bias. If there was any doubt of this, the Iraq War and the aftermath have proved it. It wasn't until 2006 before a reporter had the temerity to ask Bush about his lies in the runup to the war and there's been little to no investigation since. The mainstream media is owned by six major corporations. We get our news from sources that have a vested interest to provide the corporate spin.

Now, on to your article:

About 1,200 employees were let go just before Christmas when GM ended SUV production at the plant. Some 100 workers were retained to finish an order of small- to medium-duty trucks for Isuzu Motors.

The shut down was effectively in 2008. The later date you use in April was when a skeleton crew was left to finish out the jobs remaining. Not much to be done at this point except to save GM itself. The article goes on to say:

GM’s long-term future remains in doubt. Chief Executive Fritz Henderson said the automaker may file for bankruptcy if it can’t meet the strict requirements that came with $13.4 billion in government loans.

Of course, we know how that story ends. Obama saved the Detroit auto industry even if the Janesville plant never reopened. All the while, Romney said, "let it die". For Ryan to blame Obama for the Janesville plant closing is a lie.

Will get back to you on lie #2 when I get a chance to listen again...

[Tino]

The media does not have a liberal bias.

All news media are biased. All reporters are biased. It's a fantasy to ignore it. Most media are biased to the left or liberal. A few are biased to the right, or conservative.

The shut down was effectively in 2008.

Sorry, can't let you create your own facts. The plant closed in April 2009. You saw the source yourself.

[DeistPaladin]

Sorry, can't let you create your own facts. The plant closed in April 2009. You saw the source yourself.

Even assuming your source is correct over the Washington Post, the plant effectively shut down in 08. Only a skeleton crew (100 out of the original 1,200) remained to finish up and turn the lights out. There was nothing Obama could have done.

Oh, and just as an aside, Obama did act to save the auto industry. That's why we still have one. Romney said, "let it die".

---

All news media are biased. All reporters are biased. It's a fantasy to ignore it. Most media are biased to the left or liberal. A few are biased to the right, or conservative.

I wish that were true.