Why do you believe?

[Welsh cake]

It would take more than miracle for me to care about what you have to say any longer.

You're on ignore. Now rant away to your heart's content because I'm sure you will.

[KichigaiNeko]

Wow...it took you this long?

New kudos to you my friend Welsh...you have more patience than I

[median]

For a start not all Christians have a close walk with God, God must allow a miracle. There are various miracles God has not allowed me to do in my life. You can't say just because not all Christians, can do what I do it is not God. I know a friend personally who has prayed for paralized people and seen them 100% healed. I have prayed for paralized people and not seen them healed. Although I have healed one woman instantly of a long term back problem. If you want to see scientifically documented cases of divine healing go to http://www.wcdn.org/wcdn_eng/case/divine_case_e.asp

As for Muslums doing the same thing, I have talked to Muslums for years and only ever heard one claim of the divine, and it was nothing amazing. But if you have evidence of such things I am interested to know. But as a Christian I know there is a devil, and he can do miracles as well. I just choose to believe God. Who would want to be a Muslum anyway the Koran says men can beat their own wives, and kill unbelievers, both things I am sure God has no pleasure in.

A few things here. First, how do you determine which Christians "have a close walk with God" and which one's don't? Because you can simply SPIN, and RATIONALIZE, any situation in which to make it SOUND as if, "Oh that wasn't God, but this is...", or you can SPIN the bible into making it say anything you want it to (based on any criteria you assumed from the beginning), all without having ANY verification/falsification or testability/repeatability standards. How absurd! Anyone can shuffle the deck of interpretation so as to spin it in the direction of their assumptions. What you are giving us is nothing better than astrology or New Age mysticism. "Some people actualize their own reality better so they get better results." That is FAR from doing a critical investigation into the facts. No, that is just an attempt to twist the facts to fit what you already accepted from the beginning.

Second, your "scientifically documented cases" are not scientific at all. At their most basic level, they are Arguments from Ignorance/Incredulity. "We can't explain what happened, so instead of admitting that we don't know, we will posit a divine deity who did it." This is exactly what the ancients did when they saw lightening and heard thunder. "It must be Zeus!"

Third, do you know who the Sai BaBa of India is? How about the Tibetan Monks who claim miracles? How about the miracle doing Yogi's of India? There are literally hundreds of sects of different religions that make the same types of claims to the supernatural as you are attempting to make. Such claims are not original to your religion, and in fact pre-date your religion by millennia. As we go through them, case by case, taking a critically honest approach, we don't find the miraculous. We find unusual events that SOME people chose to INTERPRET as miraculous.

It's A Miracle! So they thought...for hundreds of years.




Finally, you say, "the Koran says men can beat their own wives, and kill unbelievers, both things I am sure God has no pleasure in." This is hilarious! Have you read your bible? Read 1 Samuel 15, Exodus 21, Judges 11, Psalm 137, Leviticus 20, or Deuteronomy 21. Your supposed "holy book" is FILLED with atrocities which are sanctioned and endorsed by your God (including slavery). You can try to spin/rationalize any of those passage, but then you are doing exactly what the Muslims do.

[FutureAndAHope]

Second, your "scientifically documented cases" are not scientific at all. At their most basic level, they are Arguments from Ignorance/Incredulity. "We can't explain what happened, so instead of admitting that we don't know, we will posit a divine deity who did it." This is exactly what the ancients did when they saw lightening and heard thunder. "It must be Zeus!"

I hope you look with care at each thing I have provided. To see they are not thunder and lightning experiences, with out reason or meaning. Every miracle that I mentioned, was a direct answer to prayer, with a testable result.

Asking God to open up the whole bible to a single verse of my choosing, is a miracle, approximately a 1/54000 chance. It is not just I opened the bible and a verse "felt good", "made me believe", I asked specifically for a verse of scripture, and it opened to that verse, the verse I asked it to be opened to.

Or the story I told you about the man who had been stabled, God asked me audiably before I met him "How would "I" like to be stabbed". A day before I met the man God asked me a question about him.

God once told me a famous Australian would die (in a very vivid vision), Steve Erwin. He died shortly after. God has told me the future numerous times.

But the thing is you have to start with faith, I never saw a miracle until I actually performed them my self. The first healing I ever saw was one of my own prayers being answered. God wants us to respond to things people tell us. We all have choices to make in life, you choose to reason away my examples of answered prayer, and reports of the miraculous. Which for me to lie has no gain for me. I don't make a living from preaching to people, I have a job that I enjoy, and I have no desire to be a minister, so money is not my goal as is often the accusation. Surely there is no point in deceiving you into becoming a Christian. What would it gain me. Ask anybody who knows me, visit Christian sites I frequent like christianforums.com and you will see I don't teach give me cash, I don't manipulate the people I talk to, I try my best to build their lives up in God. If I am delusional and really believe in God, the bible tells me not to lie, so in fear of God I would not lie. I plead with you to not be hasty in your judgments, don't judge by the standards you are used to, think slowly and carefully about all I have showed you. And consider there may well be a God. Not a God of violence, hate and rage, but one who as the bible says "does not delight in the death of the wicked", "is long suffering not willing that any perish", that "God is Love", who teaches us to "Love your enemies and do good to those who hate you", if we are to love those who hate us, surely God loves those who hate him. You are probably not a God hater, just used to human ideas. Become used to God ideas, God is not in a box, he is not testable, but he is knowable. One thing you can be assured of if you become a Christian, and are genuine, you will experience God.

Amo 5:14 If you really want to live, you must stop doing wrong and start doing right. I, the LORD God All-Powerful, will then be on your side

[pocaracas]

Asking God to open up the whole bible to a single verse of my choosing, is a miracle, approximately a 1/54000 chance. It is not just I opened the bible and a verse "felt good", "made me believe", I asked specifically for a verse of scripture, and it opened to that verse, the verse I asked it to be opened to.

We see that as evidence that your subconscious knows your bible and you wanted to get to that particular verse, so it got you there.
See how no god is required for that?

Or the story I told you about the man who had been stabled, God asked me audiably before I met him "How would "I" like to be stabbed". A day before I met the man God asked me a question about him.

God once told me a famous Australian would die (in a very vivid vision), Steve Erwin. He died shortly after. God has told me the future numerous times.

But the thing is you have to start with faith, I never saw a miracle until I actually performed them my self. The first healing I ever saw was one of my own prayers being answered.

Just to be sure.... are you saying that you prayed for someone to get healed and they did?
Well, if that's so, why don't you offer your services to the nearest hospital? Start as voluntary "work"... and see how it goes.

If I had the power to heal people, that's what I'd do. Offer my power to the national health service. What good is it to have such power and not apply it to those who manifestly need it, but are unaware that it is available?
Of course, I'd only claim it if I had already managed to heal all my friends and family of any ailment they may have, from simple scratches to cancer, diabetes, short-sightedness, amputation, etc.

[Cyberman]

Just to be sure.... are you saying that you prayed for someone to get healed and they did?
Well, if that's so, why don't you offer your services to the nearest hospital? Start as voluntary "work"... and see how it goes.

This prayer superpower as described is so astonishingly unreliable, though. There's no way for the petitioner to know whether their prayer is going to work, or whether that's the time their god is going to give the thumbs down. As a tool, it's so unreliable as to be totally useless. Imagine a piece of life-saving equipment which might occasionally work, but most of the time just comes up tilt. Or even works fifty percent of the time, indistinguihable from chance. There's not a hospital on the planet - hopefully - that would allow it within a hundred miles.

[CliveStaples]

This prayer superpower as described is so astonishingly unreliable, though. There's no way for the petitioner to know whether their prayer is going to work, or whether that's the time their god is going to give the thumbs down. As a tool, it's so unreliable as to be totally useless. Imagine a piece of life-saving equipment which might occasionally work, but most of the time just comes up tilt. Or even works fifty percent of the time, indistinguihable from chance. There's not a hospital on the planet - hopefully - that would allow it within a hundred miles.

I agree with the thrust of your argument, I think, but it's a bit odd coming from an atheist. I mean, if someone told you that your life-saving equipment couldn't ever work because the theory necessary for it to function properly is in error, wouldn't you disagree? Isn't the fact that the device functions at all proof that it can work?

Of course, this all depends on what you think it means for prayer to "work". If someone prays to God for rain, say, and then it rains--but it turns out that there is no such being as God, and that it had just so happened to rain...I wouldn't describe that as a prayer that "worked".

[pocaracas]

Just to be sure.... are you saying that you prayed for someone to get healed and they did?
Well, if that's so, why don't you offer your services to the nearest hospital? Start as voluntary "work"... and see how it goes.

This prayer superpower as described is so astonishingly unreliable, though. There's no way for the petitioner to know whether their prayer is going to work, or whether that's the time their god is going to give the thumbs down. As a tool, it's so unreliable as to be totally useless. Imagine a piece of life-saving equipment which might occasionally work, but most of the time just comes up tilt. Or even works fifty percent of the time, indistinguihable from chance. There's not a hospital on the planet - hopefully - that would allow it within a hundred miles.

Well, if it works 50% of the time, might as well use it, but don't wait for it to work and proceed to see a doctor.
Let's say this guy that has this power works it away in the hospital's waiting room.
It may just be the case that, when you're called to the doctor's office, you'll already be healed.... if not, the doctor can just do his job.

However, if it just worked that one time that made FutureAndAHope believe in it, then yes, I agree with you... very unreliable.

[CliveStaples]

Well, if it works 50% of the time, might as well use it, but don't wait for it to work and proceed to see a doctor.
Let's say this guy that has this power works it away in the hospital's waiting room.
It may just be the case that, when you're called to the doctor's office, you'll already be healed.... if not, the doctor can just do his job.

However, if it just worked that one time that made FutureAndAHope believe in it, then yes, I agree with you... very unreliable.

Here's my point: Naturalism (atheism and materialism, essentially) entails that prayer never works--and when it "does", it's only coincidence.

So if any prayer ever works, you have evidence that disproves atheism.

[pocaracas]

Here's my point: Naturalism (atheism and materialism, essentially) entails that prayer never works--and when it "does", it's only coincidence.

So if any prayer ever works, you have evidence that disproves atheism.

I think you wanted to finish with "If all prayers work, you have evidence that disproves atheism." Otherwise, you fall into the coincidence well.