The concept of Hell discourages belief

[The Reality Salesman01]

" Let's talk again when one of your boys falls in love with a party girl. The Heart wants what the heart wants. If your heart does not belong to God then no amount of talking will reason you into giving it to Him. Or if you perfer if your son has given his heart to that party girl then nothing you can say or do will carry any weight. Even if it means his life."

You and I have completely different ideas of what imminent immediate life threatening danger means. Perhaps my 3 combat deployments in 7 yrs have made party girls seem less threatening, but I digress. It doesn't matter anyway. You and I are in agreement over letting my son make the choices he wants to make. There is no issue there. If his life was in danger and it was within the limits of my human abilities to save him, then yes, I would. I accept that giving him the right to choose makes him vulnerable to mistakes. This is where you and I split ways...In your response, you forgot to follow one little rule in our thought experiment. All powerful, limitless potential...remember? If I were God, there would be nothing beyond my abilities. My son could live and make mistakes as many times as he wants and learn all sorts of lessons. There would be lots of them I wouldn't like or agree with. Here is the second place we split roads...I WOULD NOT VULGARLY SUBJECT HIM TO TORTURE FOR A DIFFERENCE IN OPINION. That's the sick part. You don't seem to agree. So, let me ask you this: What difference in opinion or mistake outside of cold hearted murder or rape, would it be okay to send your child to eternal pain and suffering? As a Christain you must know of several right?

[archangle]

I think making claims that go against everyday observations is turning people away more than a "hell".

[catfish]

So, let me ask you this: What difference in opinion or mistake outside of cold hearted murder or rape, would it be okay to send your child to eternal pain and suffering? As a Christain you must know of several right?

The Bible doesn't say "eternal", only the English translations...

[The Reality Salesman01]

Ah, then let us limit it to a measurable figure of time so that we may have an acceptable period during which we can vulgarly torture our children inspite of having the ability to make it unnecessary.

[catfish]

Ah, then let us limit it to a measurable figure of time so that we may have an acceptable period during which we can vulgarly torture our children inspite of having the ability to make it unnecessary.

Sure, but then you have to rationalize the inclusion of a Greek myth into a Jewish based religion.

Don't be mad because you believed the lie, find out why you believed the lie...

[Esquilax]

Ah, then let us limit it to a measurable figure of time so that we may have an acceptable period during which we can vulgarly torture our children inspite of having the ability to make it unnecessary.

And even doing that is being exceedingly charitable by taking catfish's assertion at face value, which, I mean... we've had this argument before.

[catfish]

Ah, then let us limit it to a measurable figure of time so that we may have an acceptable period during which we can vulgarly torture our children inspite of having the ability to make it unnecessary.

And even doing that is being exceedingly charitable by taking catfish's assertion at face value, which, I mean... we've had this argument before.

That's funny, I don't see him arguing that aeonian means "eternal", now do I?

[Tonus]

There are things we do know that Christ gave up ie. sacrificed. Christ being part of the Holy Trinity gave up His separation from sin to become sin. So God suffered knowing sin instead of the purity He had always know, this was done for all people. Christ gave up His great powers when He came as Jesus, Jesus relied on the Father's power, this means He had to trust instead of always being trusted, this was done for all people. As Drich said, Christ gave up His righteousness and became sin, this in itself should be proof of His love, this was done for all people.

That's an interesting take on it. That has some real potential. If you don't mind, I'm going to theorize a bit here...

I can see where this can work with the concept that humanity's fallen condition is the result of god's design, and therefore he is the cause. Having creating everything and found it to be "good," he presented Adam and Eve with a simple challenge, and they failed miserably. At first, god refuses to accept that his design could be that faulty. He makes some ambiguous promises for the future, but for a while he allows things to develop. Here we see Yahweh, the OT god: resentful, capricious, uncompromising, and harsh. At some point, he arranges to become human for a time and experience the human condition personally.

After growing up human, he becomes conflicted. Seeing it from 'our' vantage point, he understands better why those first humans fell so quickly and easily, and is unsettled (if not outright repulsed) by his own treatment of humanity in the intervening centuries. He begins his ministry conflicted by his two natures: the arbitrary, cruel, demanding Yahweh versus the empathetic Jesus.

The Sermon on the Mount gives evidence of this conflicted nature. Jesus blesses those who struggle and suffer through the pains that Yahweh has visited upon them, and promises them rewards as if he recognizes the unfairness of their condition. Then Yahweh comes forth, cursing their weakness by implying that the law wasn't encompassing enough. That they simply need to be more perfect (just like god) and more humble (not so much like god). This kind of back-and-forth continues through to the end, and it's not clear who is winning.

This struggle continues throughout the gospels. Jesus wins out; he is so burdened by guilt at what Yahweh put humanity through, that he feels the only way to compensate is to put himself through cruel punishment. He arranges for men to mock him, assault him, scourge him, curse him, and finally kill him in a way that was humiliating, painful, and slow. But first he faces his conflict one last time, asking to be spared his fate, a moment of human weakness that quickly passes. Just before he dies, he cries out to Yahweh in anguish and regret that he has been forsaken. Perhaps he referred to himself as a representative of humanity, so that at the very last, he understands the crime that god committed against man. Jesus' last act is to judge god's work as faulty, and in doing so he diminishes god.

And the deed is done. God has connected with humanity and understands them as he could not have before. Chastened, he opens the gates of heaven and offers salvation to humanity, not because they are right but because he was wrong. Just as he had moved closer to them, so he provides for them to move closer to him. God makes up for his misstep by offering humanity godhood.

I can imagine that this is the kind of road map that Christianity will require as time marches on and the Bible continues to be deconstructed and people come to understand it better. We can come full circle, to the times when gods were very human in their actions and attitudes and not so distant from the people that they pretended to condescend to. We will make real progress towards accepting that god is us, and we are god. And hopefully, that will help us to realize the real dream of the Bible: that we can create heaven right here, instead of slogging through this world as if it were a rest stop on the way to something better.

[Esquilax]

And even doing that is being exceedingly charitable by taking catfish's assertion at face value, which, I mean... we've had this argument before.

That's funny, I don't see him arguing that aeonian means "eternal", now do I?

I meant you and I.

But let's not trade baseless assertions again, neither of us seems to have any evidence for our positions, so... whatever.

[thesummerqueen]

Even if the original Hebrew or Aramaic of biblical texts didn't say "eternal" the belief has certainly shifted that way...if only because most Christians cannot read Hebrew or Aramaic. Your own mistranslations of the bible have resulted in mistaken belief that has shaped the more vocal parts of your population into hellfire and brimstone breathing asstards. When does something stop being a mistaken belief and just become 'belief'?