A small thanks to the resident Theists..

[Bad Writer]

How does one misrepresent beliefs that are clearly defined?

[Faith No More]

Christianity is anything but "clearly defined."

[Bad Writer]

Sorry, I thought for some reason that the theists knew what they were arguing for.

[Aractus]

Aractus

That's my name, don't wear it out!

why exactly don't you believe the Bible is the unerring word of god? It says it is, after all. And it says to follow it or you will go to hell.

ML26, didn't I say before not to tell me what my beliefs are? The reason why I didn't reply immediately, is because you've put up a rather annoying straw man argument. I never said that the Bible isn't the unerring word of God, and there are several times the Bible cites scripture as holy. But the Bible never says that hell is for not following the Bible.

From what I have ascertained, these three specific theists I've identified are perfectly justified in their beliefs based on their infallible direct communications with the creator of all the universe *and beyond.
My qualm isn't specifically the things written in the Bible because they sound a lot like they were written by man and as we both know, it was written by men. My own mother believes so, and follows the god of love she believes exists and I certainly don't accuse her of anything. You know why?

I really do not care. You seem to be equating "written by men" with "fiction", and yet man does write non-fiction too; and I might point out to you, that outside of poetry, fiction had not been invented 2,000 years ago.

Because she doesn't A. Tell me I'm going to Hell, or B. Defend such quackery as being the unerring word of GOD. I'm talking about people who defend moral murder in the name of God and are willing to submit to such a creature their morality and loyalty down to their core beliefs which influence their actions.

Again, I don't know how I can stress this enough - I really do not care.

Did I specifically name you or something in my post? If not, then don't tell me that I'm telling you what you believe.

Yes you did name me. First you named me in the title of your post as a "Resident Theist", and then you named me as a Christian.

[Bad Writer]

Mythology = Fiction. I'm pretty sure the Epic of Gilgamesh is the oldest myth we know, and that's much older than 2000 years. Maybe, Aractus, you're equating fiction with entertainment literature. Hell, biologies written about Joseph Smith by the Mormon Church are supposed to be non-fiction, but we all should realize how fictional those texts really are. Just because something is written as non-fiction, doesn't automatically make it so.

[Zone]

I really do not care. You seem to be equating "written by men" with "fiction", and yet man does write non-fiction too; and I might point out to you, that outside of poetry, fiction had not been invented 2,000 years ago.

Ancient Greek theater and plays? Though they wrote fiction without knowing it as well as I'm sure Zeus never existed.

[Mystical]

Aractus,

Here's the case backing up what I said in my original posts, which I have since laid out for your brethren. Any objections, feel free to let me know. Otherwise, I don't care that you don't care.

But the Bible never says that hell is for not following the Bible.

I thought it was sort of self evident that if the Bible says don't lie, and you lie without remorse and supplication for forgiveness through Christ like the Bible says to (unless you're an orthodox jew and don't accept the New Testament): you're going to hell. Thus the: if you don't do as the Bible says (ask for forgiveness from Christ for your sins), you're going to hell comment. Please explain why my reasoning is not right according to you.

Also, fiction is fiction is fiction unless you can prove that it isn't.


The Bible is the Word of God. God is unerring, therefore the Bible is unerring.

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I've already given you proof that the bible says eternal when referring to hell. If everyone in your religion but you believes in it, that's not my fault.

To quote your own brethren,

"Thus says the Lord" occurs over 400 times in the Old Testament.
"God said" occurs 42 times in the Old Testament and four times in the New Testament.
"God spoke" occurs 9 times in the Old Testament and 3 times in the New Testament.
"The Spirit of the Lord spoke" through people in 2 Sam. 23:2; 1 Kings 22:24; 2 Chron. 20:14.

Luke 24:44-45, "Now He said to them, 'These are My words which I spoke to you while I was still with you, that all things which are written about Me in the Law of Moses and the Prophets and the Psalms must be fulfilled.' 45 Then He opened their minds to understand the Scriptures. "

Notice that Jesus speaks about what is written regarding him in the Old Testament. Then Luke writes that Jesus opened their mind to understand the Scriptures. What Scriptures? The Law (Moses), the Prophets, and the Psalms. This was a common designation for the Old Testament. Therefore, Jesus says that the written form of the Old Testament is Scripture.

Matt 15:6, "he is not to honor his father or his mother. And thus you invalidated the word of God for the sake of your tradition."
Mark 7:13, "thus invalidating the word of God by your tradition which you have handed down; and you do many things such as that.”
John 10:35 “If he called them gods, to whom the word of God came (and the Scripture cannot be broken)."

Jesus never said the scriptures contain the word of God. He said they were the word of God.

1 Cor. 4:6, "Now these things, brethren, I have figuratively applied to myself and Apollos for your sakes, that in us you might learn not to exceed what is written, in order that no one of you might become arrogant in behalf of one against the other."
It is the written form that is proclaimed as being Scripture, unbreakable, the word of God, and the standard of which we are not to exceed. This can only be true, if the written form is the Word of God, not just something that subjectively contains the word of God.

2 Tim. 3:16-17 says, "All Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness; 17 that the man of God may be adequate, equipped for every good work."

The word "inspired" is literally "God-breathed." This is an interesting phrase, since it implies that the Scriptures are from the mouth of God.

Likewise, Peter says in 2 Pet. 1:21, "for no prophecy was ever made by an act of human will, but men moved by the Holy Spirit spoke from God." Notice that Peter is stating that prophecy is not the product of human will. Instead, prophecy occurs by those moved by the Holy Spirit.

God spoke through the mouth of the prophets. We see in Acts 3:18, "But the things which God announced beforehand by the mouth of all the prophets, that His Christ should suffer, He has thus fulfilled." Clearly, Luke, the writer of Acts, understood the Old Testament Scriptures to be spoken by God through the prophets. In fact, we find other references to the Old Testament referring to God speaking through the prophets.

Words spoken through the prophet Jeremiah are referenced in Matt. 2:17, 27:9.
Words spoken through the prophet Isaiah are referenced in Matt. 1:22, 8:17; John 12:37-40.
Words spoken through the prophets Moses and Hosea are referenced in Matt. 2:15.
Words spoken through the prophet David are referenced in Matt. 13:34-35.
Words spoken through the prophet Zechariah are referenced in Matt. 21:4.
Words spoken through the prophets generically are referenced in Matt. 26:56.

See more! At: http://carm.org/bible-isnt-word-god-it-c...s-word-god

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[Aractus]

Aractus,

Again, don't wear my name out.

I thought it was sort of self evident that if the Bible says don't lie, and you lie without remorse and supplication for forgiveness through Christ like the Bible says to (unless you're an orthodox jew and don't accept the New Testament): you're going to hell. Thus the: if you don't do as the Bible says (ask for forgiveness from Christ for your sins), you're going to hell comment. Please explain why my reasoning is not right according to you.

Firstly, hell is not a place intended for humans, it is an eternal place that was created to banish Satan and his daemons to. All Christians believe this.

Secondly, there exists a wide disagreement among theologians as to the nature of hell and its relationships for humans, so much so that the Roman Catholic Church are convinced that there is this mythical place called "purgatory" that exists solely to prevent humans from going to hell so that they can be purified and made ready for heaven - which is the place that is designed and intended for humans.

Thirdly, the Bible does make it explicit that the wicked are banished to hell alongside Satan and his daemons. But it never, ever, says anywhere that all non believers go to hell; this is central to your claim.

Also, fiction is fiction is fiction unless you can prove that it isn't.

Bullshit.

All serious historians believed for over 2,000 years that the Egyptian Pyramids were built by slaves based on one single piece of writing by a 1st cent. BC contemporary GREEK historian. Then, they excavated the graves of Egyptian workers who built one of the pyramids, and they are all (that is majority/consensus) now convinced that every pyramid must have been built by Egyptian workers and not by slaves (regardless of the fact they're built centuries apart)!

Go practise falling down.

[Zone]

Satan isn't even in Hell he was roaming loose and tempting Jesus in the desert in the gospels and in Revelation he'll make a bid to take over the the world with the anti-Christ. Then Jesus will clobber him and he and the anti-Christ will be thrown into the lake of fire with all those who followed them. Most Christians think Hell is a "separation from God" these days anyway the fire and brimstone is passe.

Satan is no more real than Ahriman, Loki, Seth and all those other guys you don't believe in.

Roman Catholic Church are convinced that there is this mythical place called "purgatory" that exists solely to prevent humans from going to hell so that they can be purified and made ready for heaven - which is the place that is designed and intended for humans.

All places you're meant to go after you die are mythical places we made up because we know nothing about it. You can't with a straight face accuse Catholics of believing in a mythical place you go when you die.

[Esquilax]

Firstly, hell is not a place intended for humans, it is an eternal place that was created to banish Satan and his daemons to. All Christians believe this.

I hear this a lot, and I've never really understood it; if this is so, why do people go there at all? Is it some kind of cosmic clerical mix-up, or does god intend that we go there now? If it's the latter, then the initial purpose of the place is hardly germane to the conversation.

Thirdly, the Bible does make it explicit that the wicked are banished to hell alongside Satan and his daemons. But it never, ever, says anywhere that all non believers go to hell; this is central to your claim.

The bible does say that nonbelievers are antichrists: "For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist." -- 2 John 7

And that they should be killed: "If thy brother, the son of thy mother, or thy son, or thy daughter, or the wife of thy bosom, or thy friend, which is as thine own soul, entice thee secretly, saying, Let us go and serve other gods, which thou hast not known, thou, nor thy fathers; Namely, of the gods of the people which are round about you ... Thou shalt not consent unto him, nor hearken unto him; neither shall thine eye pity him, neither shalt thou spare, neither shalt thou conceal him: But thou shalt surely kill him; thine hand shall be first upon him to put him to death, and afterwards the hand of all the people. And thou shalt stone him with stones, that he die." -- Dt.13:6-10

Do antichrists go to heaven when you guys murder them up good?