Reasons for God

[Darwinian]

What does that mean? People are good without any faith, I know I am and so are my friends and family.

It's not some sort of pseudo goodness is it, it's the real thing. And if you are only good because you believe that God wants you to be does that mean by nature you are actually bad?

[Amphora]

What does that mean? People are good without any faith, I know I am and so are my friends and family.

It's not some sort of pseudo goodness is it, it's the real thing. And if you are only good because you believe that God wants you to be does that mean by nature you are actually bad?

Good point Darwinian.

@ ecolox, thanks for rephrasing for what I had asked you:

do I want to be good because I want to be, or because God wants me to be
It must be because God wants me to be...I don't think I could do it on my own without faith.

Really you could not be a good person withought faith?

I see what you mean,

They may manage an "ebb and flow", as I mentioned, but I believe that is the best they can do. The world needs more than that though...anyone could see that. Those who are aware and do not take the steps to do more are guilty. It would be like watching a child drowning and doing nothing to help.

You wouldn't save that drowning child if you didn't have faith.

[downbeatplumb]

Then how do people without faith manage it so easily?

They may manage an "ebb and flow", as I mentioned, but I believe that is the best they can do. The world needs more than that though...anyone could see that. Those who are aware and do not take the steps to do more are guilty. It would be like watching a child drowning and doing nothing to help.

I find the assertion that only through god can you be REALLY good incredibly condescending and arrogant.
As Darwinian has already pointed out he considers himself to be a good person and I agree, yet because he does not beieve in an almighty god his goodness is somehow less good than yours.
Even when your goodness is down to impress a supernatural being and Darwinians is just because he is good.
If anyhing this devalues goodness done for religion rather than just because we are good.

Count to ten Downbeat count to ten.....

And relax

[Edwardo Piet]

You bring up a good point, so I have abandoned all the points I was pushing. Now I think it makes more sense to say that empathy is a good basis for believing in God.

And how is Empathy a good basis...for believing in God? I understand how it is - obviously (at least in my mind) - a good basis for morality, but why for belief in God? If you can empathize and be moral without God, then why do you need to use that as a basis for God?

1. What reason(s) is(are) there to believe God exists?

2. Since empathy is a very important basis for morality, then why should that be needed to be a basis for belief in God? If you can empathize, and be moral without God - how is God required at all?

You conceded that being moral doesn't make sense (you can't prove that murder is wrong).

Indeed.

You do it because "you care".

I'm moral because I care, yes.

God is a possible explanation of our existence, and because I care I choose Him.

If you care, why does that make you 'choose him'? You already care...why does that then lead to God, why is God required if you care already (and also why do you believe he exists anyway?).

God will treat everyone fairly.

Well he will if he exists (and if you specific God that you believes in that by definition will do that exists).

Those that don't care don't have to, but they will not be joined with those that do - that's hell, I think.

But as you said above, 'because you care' you 'choose God', so the caring comes before 'choosing' to believe in God. So if I, on the other hand (for example), care and yet don't 'choose to believe' in God, then why would God send me to hell if I'm a caring person? And if he wouldn't, and if I can care without him, why would I need to believe in him? And furthermore - of course: Why should I believe he exists anyway? What evidence is there of his existence? You say "everything", but that's reality and the universe. Where exactly is this supernatural deity? Yeah, I know, he's invisible and untouchable, he 'transcends' nature. Well, why should I believe there is a 'he' to transcend nature if he's so indistinguishable from if he...simply doesn't exist? (As I disbelieve he does).

I find the world inspiring to live in. So where is your evidence that there can be no meaning without God?

You enjoy driving down a dead end road where u-turns are illegal?

What are you talking about?

Being a good person and living a good life in general is beneficial to mankind...whether you're a believer or non-believer in God.

Yes, but I don't believe that's really possible without faith.

Why? What magic powers does "faith" - does believing without evidence - give you?

An ebb and flow is possible - giving and receiving, but I believe faith is the only way to bring on a tidal wave of good.

Why do you believe that? Got any evidence for this belief of yours that, somehow, "Faith" - belief without evidence - gives you some kind of power to do good than if you don't "have faith".

[...] I can care without God, believing in him doesn't give you special powers of kindness. If it did, then how come non-religious people can give a shit?

Because the non-religious receive repayment for the good they do, because they have plenty of support from people around them.

So how exactly does "Faith" - according to you give you the power to be genuinely unselfish, genuinely altruistic, which you somehow can't have if you don't hone it? If you don't hone this 'power' called, "Faith"?

I have real trouble believing they could go the extra mile without faith, ignorance, or insanity.

Why do you have real trouble? Simply your own personal incredulity doesn't any more make it not so of course (To say it does add to the implausibility of what you find implausible, would be to commit the fallacy of 'The Argument from Personal Incredulity'.

I think you are making a mistake about how much you care.

I think you're making a mistake because I know that I care, and I, furthermore, completely fail to see how "Faith" is the only way to genuinely care. How does taking things on "faith", how does 'having faith', how does believing without evidence: Give me a passport to genuinely caring? Why can't I - according to you it seems - genuinely care anyway?

Because, unless you can actually explain - until you can actually evidence - how I somehow logically can't care without believing in God, without 'having faith in him', then I'm of course not going to believe you. Of course I care about people, it's in my blood, I have feelings for people, I genuinely care.

If you are to say that without God this can only be for selfish reasons, then I won't believe you without evidence: Because I see that empathy and sympathy - compassion, etc - means genuinely caring, and you have as of yet completely failed to show me how I can't have these things - how I somehow can't genuinely care - without belief in God!

It's easy to think you are good when your life is good.

It's not that I 'think I am good', it's that I think I care because I feel that I care and it's these caring feelings that I care that I equate to caring!

It's easy to give when you've got plenty.

Well it certainly means that there's more to give. But some people have a lot because they're greedy, so it doesn't necessarily equate to giving. But yes it's easier because there's more to give.

A good person gives when they have nothing - when everything they have has been taken.

I would hope I'd do all I can for both myself and others if I were in a very touch situation (Or worse than 'very touch').

How could you understand that you are good?

Well it depends what you mean by good. As I said just above "It's not that I 'think I am good', it's that I think I care because I feel that I care and it's these caring feelings that I care that I equate to caring!".

I do my best to be good because I care.

I can ask the same to you, how could you understand that you are good? How does believing in God, make it any different? How? And where's the evidence for this God while we're at it? (So he is to not be more than simply a placebo for you).

How does God make the issue any easier?

Faith makes it possible to be unfairly good - being good amidst evil.

How does it?

When the world is beating people down, the natural reaction is to fight, lash out, or run away and give up...not to give.

Depends who the "people" are, we are all individuals. But yes, you appear to simply be talking to the 'Fight of Flight' response.

Faith allows believers to overcome.

How?

Perhaps by comforting them, because they, perhaps, feel better if they believe? But if it means something to them and so that's why - of course - they care...then that doesn't make their belief any more likely to be true. In itself, without evidence, why should it be believed that this consoling belief, this 'faith belief' is anything more than a placebo for them?

Now, if I were you I wouldn't judge faith by the way most "Christian" people act...most of them probably don't have much faith at all, so they are hardly able to beat their circumstances and be good examples.

Well whether they have faith or not, what difference does it make to morality?

P.S. You notice that my question above was:

How does God make the issue any easier?

, you then told me that "Faith" makes it easier...: But you didn't explain how it does...

EvF

[ecolox]

What does that mean? People are good without any faith, I know I am and so are my friends and family.

What do you do that makes you good?

It's not some sort of pseudo goodness is it, it's the real thing. And if you are only good because you believe that God wants you to be does that mean by nature you are actually bad?

Yes, I believe it is natural to be bad - with an ebb and flow being the best you can be.

---

You wouldn't save that drowning child if you didn't have faith.

Apparently. We see a lot of this via abortions.

---

I find the assertion that only through god can you be REALLY good incredibly condescending and arrogant.

So what?

As Darwinian has already pointed out he considers himself to be a good person and I agree, yet because he does not beieve in an almighty god his goodness is somehow less good than yours.

I'm not claiming to be better than you or Darwinian. My faith may be very weak... I'm just pointing out that faith could increase one's capacity to be good.

Even when your goodness is down to impress a supernatural being and Darwinians is just because he is good.
If anyhing this devalues goodness done for religion rather than just because we are good.

That doesn't make sense.

[ecolox]

P.S. You notice that my question above was:

How does God make the issue any easier?

, you then told me that "Faith" makes it easier...: But you didn't explain how it does...

Faith makes it possible. It is natural for a person to pursue survival/prosperity (and goodness to meet that end - "ebb and flow"), but that pursuit is not compatible with the pursuit of fairness for all (thus not natural). God enables the latter by ultimately ensuring the fair treatment of the faithful. Pursuit by the faithful of fairness for all is synonymous with the pursuit of unfairness of one's self for the sake of others. This would be insane/suicidal/irrational without belief in God, who will reward the believer's unfair self-treatment - the believers pursuit of fairness for all.

The desire for fairness for all is synonymous with the desire for God. I want God to exist to bring fairness to all people. I want to live as if God exists, doing according to His will (i.e. bringing fairness to all). Thus I believe God exists, and He is a fine possibility. My faith, if strong enough, should enable me to put my own survival at risk for the sake of loving others - it should enable me to overextend myself. I need to overextend myself in order to care for others as much as I desire to, thus God is necessitated by empathy.

[Retorth]

I want God to exist to bring fairness to all people.

Wanting or desiring for him to exist doesn't make it so.

I want to live as if God exists, doing according to His will (i.e. bringing fairness to all).

Again, wanting or desiring for him to exist doesn't make it so.

Thus I believe God exists

That is far from a decent reason to believe in something.

My faith, if strong enough, should enable me to put my own survival at risk for the sake of loving others - it should enable me to overextend myself. I need to overextend myself in order to care for others as much as I desire to, thus God is necessitated by empathy.

Why is god needed for you to be able to help others? That does not make sense to me. We should do it out of the pure desire of our hearts. You are implying that you need something in return.

[ecolox]

Why is god needed for you to be able to help others? That does not make sense to me. We should do it out of the pure desire of our hearts. You are implying that you need something in return.

It is possible to give until it hurts, and then to keep on giving. Without faith it wouldn't make any sense - people never go there on purpose without faith. Maybe you should try it - I feel certain that you never have.

Wanting or desiring for him to exist doesn't make it so.

Desiring God to exist and believing is an essential part of breaking the boundaries of the "ebb and flow" - allowing true good deeds. Anything less is labeled as "filthy rags" in the Bible (meaning lesser "good" deeds).

[Edwardo Piet]

Faith makes it possible.

But my question is...how?

It is natural for a person to pursue survival/prosperity (and goodness to meet that end - "ebb and flow"), but that pursuit is not compatible with the pursuit of fairness for all (thus not natural).

What makes you think that is the only alternative to "faith"? How does "faith" make people any less selfish?

God enables the latter by ultimately ensuring the fair treatment of the faithful.

How does he? And how does that make the "faithful" any less selfish? How does it make them 'truely giving' and others - the 'faithless' - only doing it for survival?

Pursuit by the faithful of fairness for all is synonymous with the pursuit of unfairness of one's self for the sake of others.

How does having faith in God make people any more faithful to other people. There's a difference between "faithful" as in 'loyalty to others', and "Faith" as in 'having faith' in God, Jesus, etc, etc. It seems to me that you are equivocating. What makes you think that people can't be loyal, or "faithful" to each other without 'having faith' - in the sense of "Belief", as opposed to loyalty which is about Trust - in God?

This would be insane/suicidal/irrational without belief in God, who will reward the believer's unfair self-treatment - the believers pursuit of fairness for all.

How would it be insane? I doubt people need to see a psychiatrist for being altruistic when they don't believe in God!

And suicidal? Irrational? What the fuck? lol.

I think people can survive in this world and still be a good person... if religious people can do it, what makes you think non-religious people can't?

Like I said, we care because of empathy, and so do non-religious people. God isn't needed for that. You already conceded that we can emphasize and care without God right? I thought your position now was that empathy and caring itself was created by God, and without God there would people couldn't survive because they would all be selfish so they'd kill each other (they wouldn't even be capable of cooperating when it's most needed!)?

The desire for fairness for all is synonymous with the desire for God.

How so?

I want God to exist to bring fairness to all people.

Well what you want is irrelevant to the truth of the matter...

I, too, want fairness, but wishing for it or praying for it won't make a difference IMO, untill I know of any evidence that it will... and I don't see how God can make a difference whatsoever, until I know of any evidence that he 1. Exists and 2. Can necessarily do so (that he's omnipotent and caring enough, etc).

I want to live as if God exists, doing according to His will (i.e. bringing fairness to all).

Well to each his own... but what you desire doesn't change the reality of the situation.

I want fairness to all to, but I don't expect it to come from God because I don't believe he exists because I'm completely unconvinced.

Thus I believe God exists, and He is a fine possibility.

How so? How does the fact you desire him to exist for the reasons given, make it any more plausible whatsoever that he genuinely exists? And how does the desire for him existing, make the possibility 'fine'?

That's appeal to emotion and is fallacious in and of itself... desire and pleasantness doesn't add to the reality factor.

My faith, if strong enough, should enable me to put my own survival at risk for the sake of loving others - it should enable me to overextend myself.

What makes you think that "Faith" specifically, that belief without evidence specifically, in God, Jesus, etc - can enable you to do so?

Why would you not care without God? I certainly care without him... I extend myself because I care because I care because I care. It's just feelings, that I have, empathy that I have. There need be no ulterior motive to it, it's just feeling and caring, naturally. Empathy that is naturally within me and that is built into me by good upbringing. Partly genetically innate; partly environmental, cultural, social. I want to care because I want to. How is God required and how does it make it better?

I need to overextend myself in order to care for others as much as I desire to, thus God is necessitated by empathy.

So you think you can only empathize with God? What makes you think that? What makes you think that non-religious people, people such as myself, can't care without God? (Or at least not genuinely)?

I still fail to see how you have explained how having "Faith" in God makes you be able to care when others don't. Because you just asserted that it matters to you and applies to you personally because you feel that you wouldn't have a reason to care without it... and you also just asserted - it seems - that God is required for "Faith" and faith is required for true morality. And so, the reason why "faith" is required is because God is required and he is required for faith...

But you haven't actually explained how "Faith" is required, how it is given to us by God as a choice to 'have faith' in him and how we somehow would be unable to care without him.

EvF

[ecolox]

I still fail to see how you have explained how having "Faith" in God makes you be able to care when others don't. Because you just asserted that it matters to you and applies to you personally because you feel that you wouldn't have a reason to care without it... and you also just asserted - it seems - that God is required for "Faith" and faith is required for true morality. And so, the reason why "faith" is required is because God is required and he is required for faith...

But you haven't actually explained how "Faith" is required, how it is given to us by God as a choice to 'have faith' in him and how we somehow would be unable to care without him.

I thought I explained that faith, both in general, as a concept, and in God, enables a person to do more (e.g. suicide bombers, the saints, etc). I want to do more, everything else is meaninglessness, so I seek God. Now I can do more, and I do. This is why I seek/believe in God, so that I am able to do more good.

I didn't say you were incapable of caring, I said you can care with constraints - e.g. survival. For example, give us a random selection of your general goals in life. Be honest.

What is it that you do that makes you think that you are good? How do you live out how much you care about others?