Abiogenesis is impossible

[Angrboda]

120 pages and still no argument as to why abiogenesis is impossible. Improbable maybe. But no evidence that it's impossible.

[Cyberman]

My expectations weren't very high.

[snowtracks]

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low-lying plain of the mesopotamian region & the Persian gulf wouldn't require more than 200 or 300 ft water depth for noah not to be able to see hills or mtns due to the earth's curvature. when noah did see land, he released the dove which returned with an olive tree leaf. this was done in the context of "the water still on the face of the whole earth" (perspective of ancient people).

200 foot mountains? these are hills aren't they.

The UN Environmental Programme's definition of "mountainous environment" includes any of the following:[11]

Elevation of at least 2,500 m (8,200 ft);
Elevation of at least 1,500 m (4,900 ft), with a slope greater than 2 degrees;
Elevation of at least 1,000 m (3,300 ft), with a slope greater than 5 degrees;
Elevation of at least 300 m (980 ft), with a 300 m (980 ft) elevation range within 7 km (4.3 mi).
Using these definitions, mountains cover 33% of Eurasia, 19% of South America, 24% of North America, and 14% of Africa.[12] As a whole, 24% of the Earth's land mass is mountainous.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mountain

You are trying to rationalise the irrational.

Time to let Noah go into the myth pile and move on.

Except if you do that it throws the rest into doubt doesn't it! remove one card and the whole house falls down.

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said 'see' the mountains. for instance, one can be located in the center of the san joaquin valley of calif (narrower than the mesopotamian valley) and cannot see the mountains east or west.

[The Grand Nudger]

low-lying plain of the mesopotamian region & the Persian gulf wouldn't require more than 200 or 300 ft water depth for noah not to be able to see hills or mtns due to the earth's curvature. when noah did see land, he released the dove which returned with an olive tree leaf. this was done in the context of "the water still on the face of the whole earth" (perspective of ancient people).

Now work out the total square mileage, then the cubic feet for depth. Then you'll know the sheer weight of the water, for example, on those plains (62.4lbs per cubic foot- upper limit of 9 tons of water per square foot, 130psi, that's equivalent to a steam boiler on top of every inch of earth, roughly 9x atmospheric pressure at sea level....think about it). That alone ought to make you pause. You'll have to circumscribe an area with enough topography to hold it all in, of course (not that it would, water flows uphill through the soil, amusingly) - or....and this would get hilarious real fast, you'd have to up the rate of downpour/upswell(however you think the water got there) to account for escape and runoff. Unless what you're talking about here is a magical pillar of water holding a magical boat aloft only to the limits of an old mans sightline - bound by nothing....but more magic - on it's edge. Which would be even more fanciful than your mythical nor'easter- which, even in the diminutive form you've offered here, would have the power to buckle the earth beneath it like a twig and leave a scar that could be seen from space.

Right off the bat I can tell you that the depth you suggested would put the deluge at 3.5 inches of rain per hour for 960 hours -over the entire area (and that's if the rain fell into a waterproof tub, mind you). Good luck keeping a barge floating in that shit. The best part, is that you were actually trying to shoot for the minimum here, to make it "more realistic" - and this is as close as you could get it eh? I guess it's the mountains of undeclared miracles that will eventually sink the ark, rather than any mound of dirt.

No deluge Tracks. None, ever, anywhere.

[Fidel_Castronaut]

This thread should be held up as a primary example of how badly theistic arguments fail when they try to support ludicrous childish stories such as the flood.

[The Grand Nudger]

Just because I'm having so much fun with this (who knew I'd learn so much trying to find correlated data)

Snow, your deluge would, in a months time, lay three times as much water as the highest annual rainfall ever recorded anywhere on earth (which occurred in india, monsoons). The volume of water would be right around the volume of lake erie (using the lower mesopotamian marshes as my location - not that they could hold that water in for a minute...but who cares...right?), and actually exceeds the theoretical maximum for rate of rainfall on this planet. A storm capable of drawing in that much moisture (read; produce that much wind-to feed the rainfall) would pound an ark into gopher wood dust. Hell, it wouldn't have to be able to float (thus excusing you on the grounds of the boats seaworthiness) because it would be airborn.

[snowtracks]

Just because I'm having so much fun with this (who knew I'd learn so much trying to find correlated data)

Snow, your deluge would, in a months time, lay three times as much water as the highest annual rainfall ever recorded anywhere on earth (which occurred in india, monsoons). The volume of water would be right around the volume of lake erie (using the lower mesopotamian marshes as my location - not that they could hold that water in for a minute...but who cares...right?), and actually exceeds the theoretical maximum for rate of rainfall on this planet. A storm capable of drawing in that much moisture (read; produce that much wind-to feed the rainfall) would pound an ark into gopher wood dust. Hell, it wouldn't have to be able to float (thus excusing you on the grounds of the boats seaworthiness) because it would be airborn.

the narrative of genesis says the floodwater sources were "the springs of the great deep" (the Hebrew phases used refers to subterranean reservoirs or aquifers) and "the floodgates of the heavens" (refers to heavy rain clouds). certain geologic events can bring aquifer water to the surface. is it an oversight that the subterranean water source is not calculated?

[The Grand Nudger]

Which would be even worse, because now you have cavaties underneath 130psi worth of miracle water. The destruction would be even more pronounced as they collapsed under the mass. It isn't calculated because it wouldn't make a difference. I was being very generous before. The topography can't hold the water, and if it could -you'd need more than 2-3hundred feet to actually get 2-3hundred feet.......alot more. "Heavy rain clouds" my ass, try a monsoon the size of the african continent. Please though, tell me about these "certain geologic events" that can bring this much water to the surface?

Still trying to salvage the fairy tale?

We could do this righteous, but I'm not going to go through the trouble unless you're willing to circumscribe an area and then eat crow when we're finished. Think you'd be able to do that?

[Jenny A]

120 pages and still no argument as to why abiogenesis is impossible. Improbable maybe. But no evidence that it's impossible.

I hope you didn't really read all 120 pages. I didn't have the patience.

I'm of the opinion that anything really important will be repeated at least a 100 times.

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I'm waiting for some bright theist to ask if the burden of proof it's on abiogenesis. The short answer is that it is. But the long answer notes that the burden of proof is also on divine creation, and there's rather more (if not conclusive evidence for abiogenesis). Right now I'm pretty comfortable with we don't know.

[snowtracks]

Which would be even worse, because now you have cavaties underneath 130psi worth of miracle water. The destruction would be even more pronounced as they collapsed under the mass. It isn't calculated because it wouldn't make a difference. I was being very generous before. The topography can't hold the water, and if it could -you'd need more than 2-3hundred feet to actually get 2-3hundred feet.......alot more. "Heavy rain clouds" my ass, try a monsoon the size of the african continent. Please though, tell me about these "certain geologic events" that can bring this much water to the surface?

Still trying to salvage the fairy tale?

We could do this righteous, but I'm not going to go through the trouble unless you're willing to circumscribe an area and then eat crow when we're finished. Think you'd be able to do that?

well you ask me to consider your math. didn't use the right input for the water source so it's wrong. not sure what the point is about the water weight that pressing down on a lake bed. after all, there's water currently in the gulf with beaucoup pressure.