What is Jewish Atheism?

[theyear12013]

I'll keep this short.

Very few on these forums call themselves Catholic Atheists, Muslim Atheists, Christian Atheists. But I've now come across a couple folks who use another moniker. What is a Jewish Atheist? How can you truly be a Jewish Atheist? Sure, its an ethnic identity; its a persecuted minority; its family relationships. One might cling to all of that. But why the label? Why not just Atheist?

[Minimalist]

Reminds me of the joke about the atheist who walks into a bar in Northern Ireland during the trouble and is asked if he is a catholic or a protestant.

"Neither," he replies. "I'm an atheist."

"But are you a catholic atheist or a protestant atheist" they demand?


You could try asking the person you are referring to.

[Cinjin]

Answer:

A person who has difficulty letting go.

[max-greece]

Answer:

A person who has difficulty letting go.

In some ways, yes.

In others it might be more accurate to say a person who has difficulty being let go.

I am an atheist who was borne Jewish. I will be Jewish till the day I die whether or not I will be atheist that long.

I do not regard this as a choice issue. There is a cloud in our history that you might argue is 3,000 years long but certainly more recently got rather horrific.

The thing is that I am Jewish not merely in my own eyes but in the eyes of those around me. The concentration camps were full of Jewish atheists.

Having stated the negative there is also the community aspect (not one I am involved in too much- really only when I go back to see my parents in Manchester). For a Jew living in a Jewish culture it is somewhat all encompassing.

I know a goodly number of Jewish Atheists. Some still keep Kosher - its not an easy habit to give up. Some still put Messuzah's on their door posts. Many go to Synagogue semi regularly.

I am as far removed from the Jewish community as most. I am, however, under no illusion that I can ever cease to be Jewish. I have hope my daughter will not be - she has been christened in a Greek Orthodox Church, although she has already declared herself to be atheist too.

Historically she too would be in the concentration camp. Her children, should she have any and assuming not with a Jewish guy would probably escape.

Overall then, its complicated. Its history, external influence, cultural immersion, family and a whole host of factors that go into determining who we, as individuals think we are.

[EgoRaptor]

I'll keep this short.

Very few on these forums call themselves Catholic Atheists, Muslim Atheists, Christian Atheists. But I've now come across a couple folks who use another moniker. What is a Jewish Atheist? How can you truly be a Jewish Atheist? Sure, its an ethnic identity; its a persecuted minority; its family relationships. One might cling to all of that. But why the label? Why not just Atheist?

Golda Meir answered this;

It is not only a matter, I believe, of religious observance and practice. To me, being Jewish means and has always meant being proud to be part of a people that has maintained its distinct identity for more than 2,000 years, with all the pain and torment that has been inflicted upon it.

[Fidel_Castronaut]

I agree with Marx above (heh, never thought I'd say that!)

Jewish 'culture' I think is just as important to most Jews as the religion itself.

Simon Schama is a famous British atheist Jew who also happens to be an eminent historian here in the UK. He did a program recently where he discussed the notion of Jewish identity throughout the world and how it has endured through generations and numerous persecutions. The identity of 'Jewish' is just as important and synonymous with what it is to be a Jew as YAWEH, at least to him. He claims that wearing something like the Kippah is more than simply an affirming of ones belief in the dogmas and doctrines of belief in a god; it is an image of what it is to be 'Jewish' beyond that, and that when he is amongst Jewish friends and family for a formal occasion it is for the act of recognizing the past, and the struggle his ancestors went through in events such as the holocaust.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Simon_Schama

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Story_of_the_Jews

[theyear12013]

Answer:

A person who has difficulty letting go.

In some ways, yes.

In others it might be more accurate to say a person who has difficulty being let go.

I am an atheist who was borne Jewish. I will be Jewish till the day I die whether or not I will be atheist that long.

I do not regard this as a choice issue. There is a cloud in our history that you might argue is 3,000 years long but certainly more recently got rather horrific.

The thing is that I am Jewish not merely in my own eyes but in the eyes of those around me. The concentration camps were full of Jewish atheists.

Having stated the negative there is also the community aspect (not one I am involved in too much- really only when I go back to see my parents in Manchester). For a Jew living in a Jewish culture it is somewhat all encompassing.

I know a goodly number of Jewish Atheists. Some still keep Kosher - its not an easy habit to give up. Some still put Messuzah's on their door posts. Many go to Synagogue semi regularly.

I am as far removed from the Jewish community as most. I am, however, under no illusion that I can ever cease to be Jewish. I have hope my daughter will not be - she has been christened in a Greek Orthodox Church, although she has already declared herself to be atheist too.

Historically she too would be in the concentration camp. Her children, should she have any and assuming not with a Jewish guy would probably escape.

Overall then, its complicated. Its history, external influence, cultural immersion, family and a whole host of factors that go into determining who we, as individuals think we are.

Max, exactly. As an observer slightly more knowledgeable about Jewish American culture than European, it does seem simply that many brilliant secular Jewish American human beings feel they don't have a choice to not be Jewish because of the events of the 1930s and 40s and the fear they feel that it is easily repeatable. Is this actually the case -- is this lack of choice real even in America? I don't know anymore.

To me, the persistence of the category is explained as a phenomena of the unique position Judaism had for 2 millenia in relation to Christianity and Islam. The human beings we call Jewish people, the current adherents of Judaism or the members of Jewish culture, play the role of the grandfather to go to for validation for the children's current prophethood but whom the younger religions alternately punish and celebrate. Its perversely symbiotic. Whether it is dhimmihood in Islam and Jewish advisors in the Ottoman empire or the Pope's Jews who lived a hermetic life outside of Rome, its as if the wider Abrahamic culture kept around Jewish human beings and this category of humans for validation -- while Jewish culture persisted embedding itself in the wider Abrahamic tradition as the source of the stories. Would Judaism be around if Rome had not become Christian? If Muhammed had not borrowed their prophetic lineage? Simple put, probably not -- other than some small communities perhaps in the Middle East.

But now -- is this label still real? Does society really care anymore? Certainly American society less and less even notices it. German and Russian Americans creation of Hollywood seems to finally allowed the creation of a post Abrahamic culture in many ways -- and so the question is do Jewish Atheists (in America at least), still need that label? Can they choose to be Atheists? Or even better just human beings? Is it time to retire this label -- if we could?

I guess what I'm saying is -- isn't the persistence of Jewish Atheism -- a sign that our culture is not ready to really embrace Atheism? The true end of the Abrahamic tradition would imply the end of this label in addition to Christian and Muslim. The ability for brilliant Jewish human beings to be just citizens and most importantly just human beings --- would mean the culture is moving on. Can Jewish human beings push it along and choose that path? I don't know.

[max-greece]

But now -- is this label still real? Does society really care anymore? Certainly American society less and less even notices it.

Sadly European society is not quite the same as you say the US is. With the current economic hardships being inflicted on the people we are watching the rise of the far right parties across Europe. This is particularly obvious over here in Greece.

Frankly the conditions mimic those of Germany during the 1920'3 and 1930's. There is a sense of hopelessness in the population and the far right is making all the right promises to weary people who can no longer think.

The level of anti-Semitism is still relatively low but it is growing. Right now the focus is on immigrants.

The leader of the far right party (Golden Dawn) is currently in prison under investigation and he is the archetypical holocaust denier who has already started blaming Zionist and Jewish Bankers for the plight of the country.

This is how it usually starts.

[BrianSoddingBoru4]

My wife describes herself as a 'Jewish atheist', by which she means she is culturally Jewish, but not religiously Jewish.

Pretty simple, really.

Boru

[theyear12013]

My wife describes herself as a 'Jewish atheist', by which she means she is culturally Jewish, but not religiously Jewish.

Pretty simple, really.

Boru

I don't call myself an American Atheist, nor a Catholic Atheist, nor an Irish Atheist, nor a Scientific Atheist. I don't qualify my atheism with some cultural meaning. Jewish Atheist is a commonly used term used I think because of the reason's Max in Greece describes. What is Jewish culture if it is not related to monotheistic Judaism? Its a 19th and 20th century thing yes? So Jewish Atheist means what? What does Jewish culture and Atheism have to do with each other? Or are we saying Jewish now has nothing to do with Judaism?