I was just in a debate with a christian

[Zen Badger]

You couldn't win a debate with one of my youth from church.

I highly doubt that your youth from church can do anything but to reproduce a few standard apologetic question-and-answer schticks full of loaded questions and ill-defined terminology, laced with a few lies about scientific knowledge. Plus some silly "gotcha" questions. If even people who are considered christian super debaters like WLC still rely on this mind-numbingly stupid Kalam argument, I don't expect your flock to do better.

Let them sign up here and prove me wrong.

The last thing GC would want is for the youths in his church to come here.

Being exposed to critical examination of their beliefs would far too risky.

[Esquilax]

I've not ever conceded an argument, nor do I know that I've lost or won one.

Both those sentiments are exactly true, but for precisely the opposite of the reason GC is thinking of.

[Alex K]

The last thing GC would want is for the youths in his church to come here.

Being exposed to critical examination of their beliefs would far too risky.

Shush! You gave away my plan!

[Tonus]

Did anyone take up Jesus offer to cast the first stone? Would you? You're 100% completely perfect in every way imaginable? But if we're talking about normal human beings then not sinning isn't going to be on the agenda.

Right, you're saying there's no choice. God made us sinners so that he could go through with his grand plan. He could've simply made the plan unnecessary.

It's not possible for humans to not sin if they aren't flawless.

Whew! Lucky for god that we're flawed, then!

What it means is you don't have to try desperately to be flawless and Holy in order to get in Gods favor, so it's easier this way.

It would've been even easier not to infect all of humanity with the sin virus and then offer a laughably complex and silly cure. Better to have simply extended the original offer to those who came afterwards, but then the Bible would only be about half a paragraph long.

[Sword of Christ]

Right, you're saying there's no choice. God made us sinners so that he could go through with his grand plan.

No you see we have attained freedom of will from God and this freedom gives the capability to sin/go against God. Genesis give the general overview of this when you have the tree of knowledge of good and evil there. With freewill comes sin and so comes the separation from God and the ultimate death.

so that he could go through with his grand plan. He could've simply made the plan unnecessary.

It was necessary to tell us what the whole deal is else we wouldn't know.

Whew! Lucky for god that we're flawed, then!

We're flawed because we're finite beings who can operate independently from God, we have the lower animal nature and the higher God or spiritual nature. The two combine and conflict.

It would've been even easier not to infect all of humanity with the sin virus and then offer a laughably complex and silly cure.

If we were unable to sin we would have no independence from God and therefore no freewill. God intended us to have freewill so we could have a relationship with him through our own free choice and can be as good or evil as we choose to be.

Better to have simply extended the original offer to those who came afterwards, but then the Bible would only be about half a paragraph long.

The Bible reveals an eternal truth to us though it was revealed in stages within history.

[Esquilax]

No you see we have attained freedom of will from God and this freedom gives the capability to sin/go against God. Genesis give the general overview of this when you have the tree of knowledge of good and evil there. With freewill comes sin and so comes the separation from God and the ultimate death.

Okay, let me see if I can't simplify this for you: since I have free will, is it possible for me to live in such a way that I don't sin?

No doubt your answer will be no, since your religion attempts to force us all under the "bad end" umbrella so it can sell us the cure. Given this, you have two options; either you must then admit that we have no choice but to sin through no fault of our own, and god's system is one in which we can never live up by design. Or you can admit that- as you seem to be implying- that our free will is inherently the source of our sin. Since our free will was instilled via Adam and Eve via the tree of knowledge, then we are being punished due to a facet of our birth that we can't possibly have helped, due to the actions of another. This is immoral by design; you wouldn't blame someone for having a birth defect, would you?

This system is immoral either way, Sword.

[Tonus]

With freewill comes sin and so comes the separation from God and the ultimate death.

So it seems that our options were to be mindless automatons and live forever, or have the freedom to choose our own path and be mercilessly crushed for it. Honestly, that is a really sucky pair of options.

It was necessary to tell us what the whole deal is else we wouldn't know.

I guess writing a guide book before humanity fell wasn't an option, either. God sounds like he really, really wanted humanity to wander into his trap.

We're flawed because we're finite beings who can operate independently from God

Indeed, and god really seems to HATE that. So why arrange for the first humans to gain free will if he knew it would mess everything up?

If we were unable to sin we would have no independence from God and therefore no freewill. God intended us to have freewill so we could have a relationship with him through our own free choice and can be as good or evil as we choose to be.

But we don't have free will if we cannot avoid sin. If god forces us to "be sinful" in order to ride to the rescue, he hasn't given us a choice at all. He's just an extortionist.

The Bible reveals an eternal truth to us though it was revealed in stages within history.

Which was wholly unnecessary for an almighty god. If we are in a fallen and lowly state that requires the intervention of a savior, it's because that is what god wanted. You worship a being that doesn't make any sense. How could he have created a complex and marvelous universe if he can't even manage two people in a garden without completely screwing it up?

[LastPoet]

(...)Min can't stand looking foolish, so he wiggles like a worm in fire.

GC

Ah shit, I'll be there with Min in hell, along with Carlin and alot of these fuckers around here, wiggling. No need to pre-heat the oven, hell, we would start our own pie company.

[Sword of Christ]

Okay, let me see if I can't simplify this for you: since I have free will, is it possible for me to live in such a way that I don't sin?

You can choose to try you just won't succeed. Sin refers to your flaws/tendency to screw up which all humans have due to their finite/limited nature and their independence from God. Jesus wasn't independent from God but fully one with God but he was a unique instance of special revelation from God.

No doubt your answer will be no, since your religion attempts to force us all under the "bad end" umbrella so it can sell us the cure.

You can/should try your best but if you fail it's ok you will still have Gods grace. Even Adolf Hitler would have it if he wanted it though chances are he would never be interested, a lot off people won't ever be but that's the freewill element.

Given this, you have two options; either you must then admit that we have no choice but to sin through no fault of our own, and god's system is one in which we can never live up by design.

The only way to not be flawed is to be finite and limited so we fail that criteria and to not have independence from God but we have freewill so we fail there as well. So there is a problem there given the nature of the set-up but it's sorted and fine seeing as salvation is from God himself.

Or you can admit that- as you seem to be implying- that our free will is inherently the source of our sin.

It's an unavoidable consequence of freewill and not being God himself. You will of course want to have freewill.

Since our free will was instilled via Adam and Eve via the tree of knowledge, then we are being punished due to a facet of our birth that we can't possibly have helped, due to the actions of another.

It's more like the kind of self harm a drug abuser would inflict on themselves.

This is immoral by design; you wouldn't blame someone for having a birth defect, would you?

The design is good overall if it allows for freewill but it does bring evil, suffering and death into the equation. There were two trees in the Garden of Eden, The tree of knowledge is your freewill this brings sin and death and Jesus on cross is the tree of life this gives you salvation from sin and immortality. So if you put everything together you can see how the universe fits into the context of a loving God. You can see the creation as good and life/freewill as gift, not a gift that can be taken away.

This system is immoral either way, Sword.

It's a lot better than the system you have in mind.

[Rahul]

I've not ever conceded an argument, nor do I know that I've lost or won one.
I've given the truth as I see it and that's the important part. Min can't stand looking foolish, so he wiggles like a worm in fire.

GC

You can lose an argument without admitting it. In fact you are quite adept at it yourself.