Pro-life atheists

[Ryantology]

I think adoption is appropriate, why is it not? Sure I understand the having to carry it, and it seems like such a waste. It almost seems selfish to me.

(If I don't want it no one else can have it) kind of mentality but I understand the struggle.

Adoption is not appropriate. In fact, it's an extremely bad idea.

1. There are 150 million orphans in the world right now. And that's just the ones that are on record.
2.250,000 children are adopted, worldwide, annually. That means that for every kid that gets adopted, more than 500 don't.
3. Forcing a woman to carry a child she doesn't want is bad enough, but giving the kid away is likely to make things much worse for her (as well as the kid).
4. Given that this has a very low likelihood of turning out well for everybody (or, anybody), there is no rational reason to force a woman to do it. There will be women who do it on their own accord, anyway.

[Mudhammam]

That seems like a fallacious, and dangerous, argument to make.

I prefer to posit it this way:

Any parent who is considering getting an abortion because they don't want to raise a child is probably a person who shouldn't be forced to raise a child. For really obvious reasons.

There are exceptions, sure, but I know what it's like to be a child who was unplanned and unwanted, but kept anyway. My wife knows it even more than I do.

I agree no one should be forced to raise a child, but outside of rape, no one is forced to copulate either. So if you're against the idea of abortion as a means of birth control, and I am, and someone is irresponsible enough to get pregnant when they can't raise a child, I think adoption is preferable to abortion.

[Losty]

Comparing abortion to genocide? Really?

Eh, not quite. I was comparing the rationale--nothing more, nothing less-- that you cited in reply to this:

My dear kid brother, would not be here had his 12 year old mother aborted him. She had him, gave him up for adoption.

I didn't see anything having to do with abuse there. Yes, child abuse is horrible but to imply that the solution is more abortions, seems like I said, potentially dangerous. Only in that I do think it can be compared to the rationale used to justify genocide, or perhaps less extreme but still horrible, forced eugenics.

No no no. I did not mean to imply that the answer to child abuse is more abortions. I don't think increasing the number of abortions in the answer to anything. My point is that a woman knows, when her family is at it's max and she cannot feed any more kids, when she is and is not ready to be a good mother, whether or not she's emotionally capable of giving up a baby for adoption, and so on and so on. So when a woman decides to have an abortion it highly unlikely that she decided on a whim. People don't have abortions for fun. We as a society need to respect that a woman is capable of making the right choice for herself and her family. When we refuse to respect their right to make what they feel is the best most appropriate decision, we cause more suffering. That was my point.

---

I prefer to posit it this way:

Any parent who is considering getting an abortion because they don't want to raise a child is probably a person who shouldn't be forced to raise a child. For really obvious reasons.

There are exceptions, sure, but I know what it's like to be a child who was unplanned and unwanted, but kept anyway. My wife knows it even more than I do.

I agree no one should be forced to raise a child, but outside of rape, no one is forced to copulate either. So if you're against the idea of abortion as a means of birth control, and I am, and someone is irresponsible enough to get pregnant when they can't raise a child, I think adoption is preferable to abortion.

Well if you ever find yourself pregnant and not ready, I promise not to pressure you into having an abortion.

[Mudhammam]

Eh, not quite. I was comparing the rationale--nothing more, nothing less-- that you cited in reply to this:


I didn't see anything having to do with abuse there. Yes, child abuse is horrible but to imply that the solution is more abortions, seems like I said, potentially dangerous. Only in that I do think it can be compared to the rationale used to justify genocide, or perhaps less extreme but still horrible, forced eugenics.

No no no. I did not mean to imply that the answer to child abuse is more abortions. I don't think increasing the number of abortions in the answer to anything. My point is that a woman knows, when her family is at it's max and she cannot feed any more kids, when she is and is not ready to be a good mother, whether or not she's emotionally capable of giving up a baby for adoption, and so on and so on. So when a woman decides to have an abortion it highly unlikely that she decided on a whim. People don't have abortions for fun. We as a society need to respect that a woman is capable of making the right choice for herself and her family. When we refuse to respect their right to make what they feel is the best most appropriate decision, we cause more suffering. That was my point.

I completely agree with you. But there are women who have 3, 4, 5 abortions, and that's something pro-choice advocates (which I am) should probably repudiate more often than they do. No one thinks abortion is fun. But there is a degree, I think, to which people take pregnancy (as well as overall health) less seriously because modern life offers us easy fixes. Men are as guilty, if not more so, than women here. That's really the only point I want to make. Pregnancy and child-rearing should be viewed more responsibly.

[Autumnlicious]

I don't think having abortions on multiple occasions requires any repudiations.

Get your blasted nose put of other's poorly planned sexual lives.

[Losty]

I completely agree with you. But there are women who have 3, 4, 5 abortions, and that's something pro-choice advocates (which I am) should probably repudiate more often than they do. No one thinks abortion is fun. But there is a degree, I think, to which people take pregnancy and health less seriously because modern life offers us easy fixes. Men are as guilty, if not more so, than women here. That's really the only point I want to make. Pregnancy and child-rearing should be viewed more responsibly.

I tried to look up the statistics to see how many women really have multiple abortions, but all I could find are like religious blogs and other crap :/

Anyways, I said somewhere earlier in this thread, If you think we should try to reduce the number of abortions.
Easy steps
Better education
Easier cheaper access to birth control and morning after pill
Eliminating sexual taboos and the idea that sex outside of marriage is dirty and shameful

[The Valkyrie]

I completely agree with you. But there are women who have 3, 4, 5 abortions, and that's something pro-choice advocates (which I am) should probably repudiate more often than they do. No one thinks abortion is fun. But there is a degree, I think, to which people take pregnancy and health less seriously because modern life offers us easy fixes. Men are as guilty, if not more so, than women here. That's really the only point I want to make. Pregnancy and child-rearing should be viewed more responsibly.

I tried to look up the statistics to see how many women really have multiple abortions, but all I could find are like religious blogs and other crap :/

Anyways, I said somewhere earlier in this thread, If you think we should try to reduce the number of abortions.
Easy steps
Better education
Easier cheaper access to birth control and morning after pill
Eliminating sexual taboos and the idea that sex outside of marriage is dirty and shameful

That's precisely what would help.

And telling kids their bodies are dirty is just fucking idiotic.

[Mudhammam]

I don't think having abortions on multiple occasions requires any repudiations.

Get your blasted nose put of other's poorly planned sexual lives.

I suppose if you lack any compassion for human beings who suffer as a result of irresponsibility, whether it be the botched abortion or the starving or orphaned child, then it's easy to keep a "blasted nose" (?) out of other people's affairs.

But since I do care, I like to promote discussion and action regarding ways to better the world even when I'm not the one personally effected.

[Losty]

I don't think having abortions on multiple occasions requires any repudiations.

Get your blasted nose put of other's poorly planned sexual lives.

I suppose if you lack any compassion for human beings who suffer as a result of irresponsibility, whether it be the botched abortion or the starving or orphaned child, then it's easy to keep a "blasted nose" (?) out of other people's affairs.

But since I do care, I like to promote discussion and action regarding ways to better the world even when I'm not the one personally effected.

I don't think it's okay or fair to judge individual women on how many abortions they may have had, but I don't see any problem with wanting to discuss ways that we as a society could reduce over all abortion.

[The Valkyrie]

I suppose if you lack any compassion for human beings who suffer as a result of irresponsibility, whether it be the botched abortion or the starving or orphaned child, then it's easy to keep a "blasted nose" (?) out of other people's affairs.

But since I do care, I like to promote discussion and action regarding ways to better the world even when I'm not the one personally effected.

I don't think it's okay or fair to judge individual women on how many abortions they may have had, but I don't see any problem with wanting to discuss ways that we as a society could reduce over all abortion.

I think it is important to identify these women who have many abortions, particularly those few who seem to treat it as a form of birth control, so it can be identified why they do it and, hopefully, provide them with assistance/education on ways to avoid it.