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July 18, 2014 at 11:11 am (This post was last modified: July 18, 2014 at 11:14 am by Aractus.)
(July 18, 2014 at 5:07 am)Amalynne0 Wrote: I want to repsond in a way that will at least get him to think.
...
I think I barfed in my mouth slightly. He's a genuine, heartfelt guy, but he's choosing to feel rather than think. How can I reason with that?? I just don't know.
As a recent ex-xian I'd say get him on his facts.
Here's an easy one:
"He chose the Hebrews to be an example to the rest of creation as to what it looks like to be in a life-giving relationship with Him."
That's true, the god of Abraham chose the Hebrews as an "example" to the "rest of creation", there's a fact everyone agrees upon. Why then did ancient Egypt have near equal rights for women while the ancient Hebrews most certainly did not*? Why then does this same god demand that Abraham be willing to sacrifice his "only" son Isaac to him as a test of his righteousness? Try this one on for size - there's been humans on the planet for at least 200,000 years and possibly longer, how were the Hebrews examples to the Chinese, Japanese, Indians, Indigenous Americans, Aboriginal Australians, South Africans, etc?
If you ask the second question the answer you will usually hear is "God didn't accept the sacrifice ..." or "God wasn't really going to accept the sacrifice" - in which case say "I didn't say that I said he demanded that Abraham be willing to sacrifice his only son".
*You can prove this point with the fact that God decrees male slaves serve for 7 years and then be set free, but female slaves shall never be freed - there is no great proof than that that the ancient Hebrews/Israelites/Jews did not have anywhere near the gender-equality of Egypt or Rome.
For Religion & Health see:[/b][/size] Williams & Sternthal. (2007). Spirituality, religion and health: Evidence and research directions. Med. J. Aust., 186(10), S47-S50.-LINK
The WIN/Gallup End of Year Survey 2013 found the US was perceived to be the greatest threat to world peace by a huge margin, with 24% of respondents fearful of the US followed by: 8% for Pakistan, and 6% for China. This was followed by 5% each for: Afghanistan, Iran, Israel, North Korea.-LINK
"That's disgusting. There were clean athletes out there that have had their whole careers ruined by people like Lance Armstrong who just bended thoughts to fit their circumstances. He didn't look up cheating because he wanted to stop, he wanted to justify what he was doing and to keep that continuing on." - Nicole Cooke
(July 18, 2014 at 5:07 am)Amalynne0 Wrote: So, I don't know if this is the right place to post this but the church of my youth has found out about my atheism via social media and has made a spirited attempt to bring me back into the fold... bleakly I might add, but it's about as IN MY FACE as I can possibly stand.
I received one hell of an email this evening from the youth pastor who made led me to accept the Lord when I was a mentally vulnerable 12 year old.
I want to repsond in a way that will at least get him to think. He's so far gone I'm not sure that he can see reason, but if people had given up on me I wouldn't be able to live in my current state of enlightenment. He wrote a frickin' novel, but this is the jist of it... how would you respond, if at all??
(he calls me Amy, which everyone who's lazy resorts to)
Quote: I want you to know that I'm with you on religion. Yes...you read that right. I believe religion to be man's attempt at trying to figure out something bigger than himself. I think I get religion...I get as to WHY so many people embrace it...but to me...it's LIFE-LESS. I am NOT about religion, but I am about a relationship. I know...that probably sounds cheesy to you...some one liner you've probably heard me or someone else say in the past. But it's a true description of how I see GOD. I don't think GOD wants us to be about religion...I think He wants us, and has always wanted us/humanity, to be in a RELATIONSHIP with Him.
WHY?
Because He loves us.
He love us...He loves us...He loves us. I believe there is a GOD/Creator, I believe creation got a little proud one day and said, "I don't need you God. I can handle this on my own." And God said "Ok, I wont make you be in a relationship with me." And at that moment, there came a division between God and His creation. But God didn't stop when that division arose-(and He wasn't surprised by it either)-because at the same moment when creation walked away from Him, He began His plan to bring His creation back into a life-giving relationship with Him.
Now that "reconciliation-plan" involved people. He chose the Hebrews to be an example to the rest of creation as to what it looks like to be in a life-giving relationship with Him. He chose men like Noah, Moses, and David. He chose women like Esther, Deborah, and Bathsheba. But Amy, you and I both know that PEOPLE...are messed up. We are all hurting...we always have been. And the crazy thing is...that GOD has always known this too...but yet He still chose to use people to bring about this "reconciliation-plan"...why? I don't know, but maybe it has to do with people just needing to see GOD in other people so that it makes more sense.
Eventually, at the right place, and at the right time, GOD said, "That's it,it's time for the most important part of my plan. It's time they see ME, and see WHO I AM, and HOW MUCH I LOVE THEM." And that's when GOD became His own creation, 100% man and 100% God...JESUS entered the scene. Jesus came to do what we/creation could never do...and that was to destroy the DIVISION between us and the Creator. He blew it out of the water when He died on the cross, and when He beat death three days later. He proved that if He can beat death...then He can beat the death in our lives as well...the BIG death, and the LITTLE deaths we die everyday. Jesus has the power to help us, to heal us "hurting-people", and then He still chooses to use us to help point other hurting people to Him.
WHY?
Because He loves us.
He loves you Amy. It might annoy you to read it over and over again...but He loves you. He made you...He knows how you tick...and as crazy as it sounds Amy, I believe He's proud of you. Because I don't believe you are "walking away" or "denying your faith"...I believe that you are GROWING...growing more and more into the woman He has created you to be. A woman who has grown to a point of realizing that there must be something more than just "being good"...something more than just "religion". And I believe you're right...there is something more. And when I came to the point that I believe you have come to...I walked away with this...
Religion sucks...the life out of you. But a RELATIONSHIP with GOD...gives life.
So that's what I'm about. I'm about figuring out more and more what this relationship with God is all about...not the religious stuff. And the reason WHY I am about this...
...is because He loves me. He loves me like no other. I know, you have every right to believe I'm just big softy who probably still believes in Santa too. :-) But seriously Amy, I'm not now, nor have I ever been, compelled to tell you something just because I was paid to or told to. I have only, and I am only now...sharing with you all of this because of ONE REASON. Because He loves me, He loves me, He loves me.
Not because I'm a man.
Not because I'm an American.
Not because I'm white.
Not because I'm middle class.
Not because I'm straight
Not because I'm a "good guy", and
Not because I'm a pastor.
He loves me because I'm His creation. (Period).
And He loves you too...for the same reason.
I think I barfed in my mouth slightly. He's a genuine, heartfelt guy, but he's choosing to feel rather than think. How can I reason with that?? I just don't know.
Thoughts?
I'd give him a simple, "No thanks," and be done with it.
July 18, 2014 at 11:18 am (This post was last modified: July 18, 2014 at 11:20 am by StealthySkeptic.)
(July 18, 2014 at 6:15 am)Fidel_Castronaut Wrote: Truth is, you can't.
You can attempt to give a witty, faith jostling retort, but I don't think that would have the impact you're seeking to have.
Rather, you can outline (briefly or not, it's up to you) why you decided to ditch your faith; the moments that grew to culminate in you making that leap. I don't see any need to be antagonistic about it, almost like he is in that letter. Rather, outline the above, and conclude that you (personally) don't need a god, or a religious belief, to be who you are. Your love and kindness doesn't require an un-evidenced big bearded man in the sky.
Can I give a billion kudos to this? Is that physically possible? Because this is EXACTLY what I would do if I was in OP's position.
I also think that Minimalist's signature, "Atheism. Not a religion. A personal relationship with reality" perfectly rebuts the usual "It's not a religion it's a relationship...with a 2000 year old Jewish zombie" tactic Christians trot out.
Luke: You don't believe in the Force, do you?
Han Solo: Kid, I've flown from one side of this galaxy to the other, and I've seen a lot of strange stuff, but I've never seen *anything* to make me believe that there's one all-powerful Force controlling everything. 'Cause no mystical energy field controls *my* destiny. It's all a lot of simple tricks and nonsense.
That dude believes a LOT of stuff, but he doesn't give any reasons why you should believe he's right about any of it. He's just preaching, no reasoning in there at all.
July 18, 2014 at 1:47 pm (This post was last modified: July 18, 2014 at 1:47 pm by downbeatplumb.)
(July 18, 2014 at 5:07 am)Amalynne0 Wrote: So, I don't know if this is the right place to post this but the church of my youth has found out about my atheism via social media and has made a spirited attempt to bring me back into the fold... bleakly I might add, but it's about as IN MY FACE as I can possibly stand.
I received one hell of an email this evening from the youth pastor who made led me to accept the Lord when I was a mentally vulnerable 12 year old.
I want to repsond in a way that will at least get him to think. He's so far gone I'm not sure that he can see reason, but if people had given up on me I wouldn't be able to live in my current state of enlightenment. He wrote a frickin' novel, but this is the jist of it... how would you respond, if at all??
(he calls me Amy, which everyone who's lazy resorts to)
Quote: I want you to know that I'm with you on religion. Yes...you read that right. I believe religion to be man's attempt at trying to figure out something bigger than himself. I think I get religion...I get as to WHY so many people embrace it...but to me...it's LIFE-LESS. I am NOT about religion, but I am about a relationship. I know...that probably sounds cheesy to you...some one liner you've probably heard me or someone else say in the past. But it's a true description of how I see GOD. I don't think GOD wants us to be about religion...I think He wants us, and has always wanted us/humanity, to be in a RELATIONSHIP with Him.
WHY?
Because He loves us.
He love us...He loves us...He loves us. I believe there is a GOD/Creator, I believe creation got a little proud one day and said, "I don't need you God. I can handle this on my own." And God said "Ok, I wont make you be in a relationship with me." And at that moment, there came a division between God and His creation. But God didn't stop when that division arose-(and He wasn't surprised by it either)-because at the same moment when creation walked away from Him, He began His plan to bring His creation back into a life-giving relationship with Him.
Now that "reconciliation-plan" involved people. He chose the Hebrews to be an example to the rest of creation as to what it looks like to be in a life-giving relationship with Him. He chose men like Noah, Moses, and David. He chose women like Esther, Deborah, and Bathsheba. But Amy, you and I both know that PEOPLE...are messed up. We are all hurting...we always have been. And the crazy thing is...that GOD has always known this too...but yet He still chose to use people to bring about this "reconciliation-plan"...why? I don't know, but maybe it has to do with people just needing to see GOD in other people so that it makes more sense.
Eventually, at the right place, and at the right time, GOD said, "That's it,it's time for the most important part of my plan. It's time they see ME, and see WHO I AM, and HOW MUCH I LOVE THEM." And that's when GOD became His own creation, 100% man and 100% God...JESUS entered the scene. Jesus came to do what we/creation could never do...and that was to destroy the DIVISION between us and the Creator. He blew it out of the water when He died on the cross, and when He beat death three days later. He proved that if He can beat death...then He can beat the death in our lives as well...the BIG death, and the LITTLE deaths we die everyday. Jesus has the power to help us, to heal us "hurting-people", and then He still chooses to use us to help point other hurting people to Him.
WHY?
Because He loves us.
He loves you Amy. It might annoy you to read it over and over again...but He loves you. He made you...He knows how you tick...and as crazy as it sounds Amy, I believe He's proud of you. Because I don't believe you are "walking away" or "denying your faith"...I believe that you are GROWING...growing more and more into the woman He has created you to be. A woman who has grown to a point of realizing that there must be something more than just "being good"...something more than just "religion". And I believe you're right...there is something more. And when I came to the point that I believe you have come to...I walked away with this...
Religion sucks...the life out of you. But a RELATIONSHIP with GOD...gives life.
So that's what I'm about. I'm about figuring out more and more what this relationship with God is all about...not the religious stuff. And the reason WHY I am about this...
...is because He loves me. He loves me like no other. I know, you have every right to believe I'm just big softy who probably still believes in Santa too. :-) But seriously Amy, I'm not now, nor have I ever been, compelled to tell you something just because I was paid to or told to. I have only, and I am only now...sharing with you all of this because of ONE REASON. Because He loves me, He loves me, He loves me.
Not because I'm a man.
Not because I'm an American.
Not because I'm white.
Not because I'm middle class.
Not because I'm straight
Not because I'm a "good guy", and
Not because I'm a pastor.
He loves me because I'm His creation. (Period).
And He loves you too...for the same reason.
I think I barfed in my mouth slightly. He's a genuine, heartfelt guy, but he's choosing to feel rather than think. How can I reason with that?? I just don't know.
Yes...you read that right. I believe religion to be man's attempt at trying to figure out something bigger than himself. I think I get religion...I get as to WHY so many people embrace it...but to me...it's LIFE-LESS. I am NOT about religion, but I am about a relationship. I know...that probably sounds cheesy to you...some one liner you've probably heard me or someone else say in the past. But it's a true description of how I see GOD. I don't think GOD wants us to be about religion...I think He wants us, and has always wanted us/humanity, to be in a RELATIONSHIP with Him. 
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