Be honest, am I going to hell for "my" atheism?

[Foxaèr]

If you want an answer, quit insulting me. Otherwise talk to the hand.

Are you in third grade?

My insulting response was resonant of being an adult, at least.

[Iroscato]

Also, when did we suddenly decide that omnipotent can be equated with goodness? Power is known to corrupt, and absolute power...
Oh, but I suppose God is perfect and incorruptible, therefore the rules don't apply to him, never have and never will. And who was it who apparently told you of his perfection? Oh that's right! The big man himself! My, what an extraordinarily high opinion he has of himself! And he demands your complete and unyielding worship and adoration as well, otherwise he will send you to a place that is specifically designed to instill as much agony and fear in a human being is possible. And he could quite easily not BURN YOU FOR ETERNITY, but he does anyway, because...?
Oh that's it, because you refused the gift he offered you! You refused to have a relationship with him. Yes, yes of course. In your heretical employment of that pesky free will he programmed you with, you simply couldn't muster up the belief in his existence due to a laughable lack of actual empirical evidence. Therefore, you will BURN FOR ETERNITY.
Oh, but you should have known he existed! Look around you, can't you see the wonder of nature and the miracle of life? Yes, I do, and I am amazed by it. I do not require belief in a cloud-riding sky fairy to give substance to that amazement though. I see nothing that exists that could only have been designed.
I see global horrors playing out daily. I see suffering on a truly immense scale, and evil vested interests manipulating the world and its people. I see these horrors, and they reinforce themselves in my mind and fuse with the utter lack of evidence for a deity, and what emerges is a two-step atheistic chimaera.

1) There is no evidence for God.
2) If he does exist, he is wicked.

I may as well put that in my sig, I have a feeling I'm gonna be saying it a lot to an array of chucklefucks over the next few years...

[Lek]

Oh, so now a couple of insults are enough to stop you debating? Boo hoo for you.
If death is the end of your existence, it must by definition be peaceful, because you are no longer capable of conscious thought. This is backed up by our sum understanding of the way the brain works. People who suffer brain damage and/or lobotomies rarely resemble the person they were before. You usually do not dream when under general anaesthetic and are not aware of the passage of time. You effectively do not exist as a conscious entity during that time.
I find it hilarious that you say others have 'limited knowledge' when you derive your entire belief system of life, the universe and everything from a 2000 year old, poorly translated and retranslated collection of stories that make such fantastical claims like the flood myth and god-channeling burning bushes.

I was trying to demonstrate that you believe something that you have no proof for. Also, we were the debating traits of the christian God, who is omnipotent. In that context, he is all-knowing and we have only limited knowledge. I admit that I have limited knowledge. I base my belief in God and the supernatural in the words of the bible, but I base much of my understanding of the natural world in the discoveries of science and my physical senses.

[Iroscato]

Oh, so now a couple of insults are enough to stop you debating? Boo hoo for you.
If death is the end of your existence, it must by definition be peaceful, because you are no longer capable of conscious thought. This is backed up by our sum understanding of the way the brain works. People who suffer brain damage and/or lobotomies rarely resemble the person they were before. You usually do not dream when under general anaesthetic and are not aware of the passage of time. You effectively do not exist as a conscious entity during that time.
I find it hilarious that you say others have 'limited knowledge' when you derive your entire belief system of life, the universe and everything from a 2000 year old, poorly translated and retranslated collection of stories that make such fantastical claims like the flood myth and god-channeling burning bushes.

I was trying to demonstrate that you believe something that you have no proof for.  Also, we were the debating traits of the christian God, who is omnipotent.  In that context, he is all-knowing and we have only limited knowledge.  I admit that I have limited knowledge.  I base my belief in God and the supernatural in the words of the bible, but I base much of my understanding of the natural world in the discoveries of science and my physical senses.

I believe something in which there is an enormous amount of research, evidence and common bloody sense to vouch for it. It has been consistently shown that only an intact, healthy and whole brain can sustain a consciousness. In situations where the brain is altered, affected or shut down temporarily, you have no conscious thought and are not aware of anything, or your very perception of the world is distorted and you change as a person entirely. Now extrapolate and apply that to permanent brain death. You cease having the ability to be aware of anything. That is simple logic. I am distressed you cannot follow it.
Extremely shaky recollections of near-death experiences - which are experienced by definition by people whose brains stop working for a bit - aside, there is zero evidence to support your claim.

Why do you believe God is omnipotent? Because he told you? Because the magic book said so?

[Lek]

Also, when did we suddenly decide that omnipotent can be equated with goodness? Power is known to corrupt, and absolute power...
Oh, but I suppose God is perfect and incorruptible, therefore the rules don't apply to him, never have and never will. And who was it who apparently told you of his perfection? Oh that's right! The big man himself! My, what an extraordinarily high opinion he has of himself! And he demands your complete and unyielding worship and adoration as well, otherwise he will send you to a place that is specifically designed to instill as much agony and fear in a human being is possible. And he could quite easily not  BURN YOU FOR ETERNITY, but he does anyway, because...?
Oh that's it, because you refused the gift he offered you! You refused to have a relationship with him. Yes, yes of course. In your heretical employment of that pesky free will he programmed you with, you simply couldn't muster up the belief in his existence due to a laughable lack of actual empirical evidence. Therefore, you will BURN FOR ETERNITY.
Oh, but you should have known he existed! Look around you, can't you see the wonder of nature and the miracle of life? Yes, I do, and I am amazed by it. I do not require belief in a cloud-riding sky fairy to give substance to that amazement though. I see nothing that exists that could only have been designed.
I see global horrors playing out daily. I see suffering on a truly immense scale, and evil vested interests manipulating the world and its people. I see these horrors, and they reinforce themselves in my mind and fuse with the utter lack of evidence for a deity, and what emerges is a two-step atheistic chimaera.

1) There is no evidence for God.
2) If he does exist, he is wicked.

I may as well put that in my sig, I have a feeling I'm gonna be saying it a lot to an array of chucklefucks over the next few years...

First of all, I don't belief that the bible teaches that one's time in hell is eternal. And when I look at the world I do see it as evidence of a creator. Once science proves that everything came about without a creator or that everything just always existed, I'll re-examine my beliefs. I also believe that there is a purpose for everything that exists. When I see a human, I see something more than a walking and talking pile of dirt that is here by accident. As far as there being no evidence for God--it depends on what you consider to be evidence.

---

I believe something in which there is an enormous amount of research, evidence and common bloody sense to vouch for it. It has been consistently shown that only an intact, healthy and whole brain can sustain a consciousness. In situations where the brain is altered, affected or shut down temporarily, you have no conscious thought and are not aware of anything, or your very perception of the world is distorted and you change as a person entirely. Now extrapolate and apply that to permanent brain death. You cease having the ability to be aware of anything. That is simple logic. I am distressed you cannot follow it.
Extremely shaky recollections of near-death experiences - which are experienced by definition by people whose brains stop working for a bit - aside, there is zero evidence to support your claim.

Why do you believe God is omnipotent? Because he told you? Because the magic book said so?

According to your understanding of what we experience after death, we simply don't exist. There can be no feeling of peace or suffering or anything else. There is simply no awareness at all. We can't even comment on that state because none of us have experienced it.

I believe God is omnipotent because the bible says he is and I accept the bible as true in what it teaches about God.

[Iroscato]

Also, when did we suddenly decide that omnipotent can be equated with goodness? Power is known to corrupt, and absolute power...
Oh, but I suppose God is perfect and incorruptible, therefore the rules don't apply to him, never have and never will. And who was it who apparently told you of his perfection? Oh that's right! The big man himself! My, what an extraordinarily high opinion he has of himself! And he demands your complete and unyielding worship and adoration as well, otherwise he will send you to a place that is specifically designed to instill as much agony and fear in a human being is possible. And he could quite easily not  BURN YOU FOR ETERNITY, but he does anyway, because...?
Oh that's it, because you refused the gift he offered you! You refused to have a relationship with him. Yes, yes of course. In your heretical employment of that pesky free will he programmed you with, you simply couldn't muster up the belief in his existence due to a laughable lack of actual empirical evidence. Therefore, you will BURN FOR ETERNITY.
Oh, but you should have known he existed! Look around you, can't you see the wonder of nature and the miracle of life? Yes, I do, and I am amazed by it. I do not require belief in a cloud-riding sky fairy to give substance to that amazement though. I see nothing that exists that could only have been designed.
I see global horrors playing out daily. I see suffering on a truly immense scale, and evil vested interests manipulating the world and its people. I see these horrors, and they reinforce themselves in my mind and fuse with the utter lack of evidence for a deity, and what emerges is a two-step atheistic chimaera.

1) There is no evidence for God.
2) If he does exist, he is wicked.

I may as well put that in my sig, I have a feeling I'm gonna be saying it a lot to an array of chucklefucks over the next few years...

First of all, I don't belief that the bible teaches that one's time in hell is eternal.  And when I look at the world I do see it as evidence of a creator.  Once science proves that everything came about without a creator or that everything just always existed, I'll re-examine my beliefs.  I also believe that there is a purpose for everything that exists.  When I see a human, I see something more than a walking and talking pile of dirt that is here by accident.  As far as there being no evidence for God--it depends on what you consider to be evidence.

"Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life"
Matthew 25:46

"In a similar way, Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding towns gave themselves up to sexual immorality and perversion. They serve as an example of those who suffer the punishment of eternal fire."
Jude 1:7

"“Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels."
Matthew 25:41

At least READ your magic recipe book before you cherry pick from it. Come on, you can do better than that. At least you say you will refute your beliefs once science figures out what makes the universe tick. It shows that your belief is already on fairly shaky ground, you just need a push to really sort your brain out

I also see more than that in humans and humankind. I see a mammal that is the result, but not the aim, of 3.5 billion years of evolution, who has a chance to discover the wonders of the universe, and understand its workings, all whilst helping the other members of its species live fuller and better lives.

---

According to your understanding of what we experience after death, we simply don't exist. There can be no feeling of peace or suffering or anything else. There is simply no awareness at all. We can't even comment on that state because none of us have experienced it.

Right, exactly. None of us have experienced it. However, I am arguing that the sum total of all the research into the appropriate fields has led to the people leading it to come to the conclusion that existence without the brain is biologically impossible. Your brain is you. Without it, there is no more you.

I believe God is omnipotent because the bible says he is and I accept the bible as true in what it teaches about God.

Why? What gives it any more credence than any other religious text published in the entire history of humankind? Why this particular lucky cult over all the others?

[robvalue]

The thing is Lek...

You describe the world from an entirely atheist perspective, but then shove God in as a way of dealing with it.

If God is "helping" you with life, to deal with what the earth is like, he is helping you cope with the stuff he put there to make you suffer. He's the same guy playing both sides. Obviously I don't think any of that is true, but I'm describing the consequences of your beliefs.

Let's make an analogy. I go through a forest, and I set up traps everywhere. I put in man traps, trip wires which fire off darts... all sorts of things. Some traps will kill you, some will hurt you a lot, and some will just be annoying. I also put some nice things there, some food and entertainment, some shelter. I've designed this whole place exactly how I want it.

Now, I put you in this forest. I follow you around giving you comfort and reassurance, to help you cope with the situation I put you in. When you walk into one of my traps and you get hurt, I share your pain, say how awful it is, but tell you you'll be stronger for it.

Oh but wait, the traps aren't just affecting you. There's children and animals, who have nothing to do with any of this, wandering about in the forest. The traps keep going off and killing or maiming them. Maybe you can find and disarm some of the traps that I put there, but that's way too many to stop all of them.

But it's OK! Because I'm here to help you cope with those children and animals slowly dying hideous deaths from the traps I put there. I'll give you the strength to believe you can get through this. I promise you some big reward at the end. And I tell you I have good reasons for doing all this crap. I won't tell you what those reasons are, just that I'm really clever and wise, as another squirrel gets decimated by a pipe bomb shooter.

Am I a nice guy, or am I a sick psychopath?

"Can't I just have a sandwich, please? You clearly have infinite sandwiches to hand out."
"No! First I'm going to scrape a load of skin off your leg with this amazing trap."
"Why?"
"It will make you stronger, and I am mysterious. Oh, and this other guy made that trap! That one was made by my evil twin."
"But you know it is there? Why don't you remove it? Plus, I've seen no evidence of this other guy. I highly suspect it was you who put it there."
"Shut up and walk into the trap if you want your sandwich."

To address what you said, yes, I think the world is a horrible place. It is full of suffering. So one of my coping mechanisms is to shut out that suffering which I cannot prevent from my mind, at least some of the time. This is so I can think clearly about getting through life and to be able to help the small amounts of suffering I might be able to prevent. This is because I care deeply about all living things, so for me to function, I can't sit around thinking of suffering I can do nothing about. I accept this is how the world is, and I must do my best. I don't actually delude myself into really thinking the suffering isn't taking place.

To pretend there is some amazing being in charge and that he knows what he's doing, and everything is going to be alright, is another coping mechanism. It doesn't make things any more right, nor does it make it more likely anything will be OK. I use my method of coping, and it has been working. I enjoy life where I can. I'm as happy as I can be given how ill I am and how shit the world is. Why would I enjoy it more because I have an imaginary friend? And if I think this friend has actually inflicted my illness on me, and has created all the shit he's trying to help me cope with, I'd be wanting to get rid of this insane friend.

I choose reality, and I cope with it as best I can. Living in a pretend comic book version of reality is not going to help me. It's the same reality, whatever I think about it.

If religion helps you cope, then that's cool! I'm not trying to take that away from you. But I'm trying to explain why it is not for me, and what the results of your premises actually are, in my opinion. I'm not attacking you, or trying to force you to change your mind about anything. I'm reflecting back what your beliefs sound like to me, and how they would fit into reality.

[Lek]

"Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life"
Matthew 25:46

"In a similar way, Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding towns gave themselves up to sexual immorality and perversion. They serve as an example of those who suffer the punishment of eternal fire."
Jude 1:7

"“Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels."
Matthew 25:41

Yeah. The problem is that there is more than one way to interpret the Greek word that is being translated as "eternal". Also, there are many more verses in the bible that support universal reconciliation or annihilation than support eternal torment. Of course, annihilation would be eternal since destruction would last forever, the same as the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah.

---

The thing is Lek...

You describe the world from an entirely atheist perspective, but then shove God in as a way of dealing with it.

If God is "helping" you with life, to deal with what the earth is like, he is helping you cope with the stuff he put there to make you suffer. He's the same guy playing both sides. Obviously I don't think any of that is true, but I'm describing the consequences of your beliefs.

Let's make an analogy. I go through a forest, and I set up traps everywhere. I put in man traps, trip wires which fire off darts... all sorts of things. Some traps will kill you, some will hurt you a lot, and some will just be annoying. I also put some nice things there, some food and entertainment, some shelter. I've designed this whole place exactly how I want it.

Now, I put you in this forest. I follow you around giving you comfort and reassurance, to help you cope with the situation I put you in. When you walk into one of my traps and you get hurt, I share your pain, say how awful it is, but tell you you'll be stronger for it.

Oh but wait, the traps aren't just affecting you. There's children and animals, who have nothing to do with any of this, wandering about in the forest. The traps keep going off and killing or maiming them. Maybe you can find and disarm some of the traps that I put there, but that's way too many to stop all of them.

But it's OK! Because I'm here to help you cope with those children and animals slowly dying hideous deaths from the traps I put there. I'll give you the strength to believe you can get through this. I promise you some big reward at the end. And I tell you I have good reasons for doing all this crap. I won't tell you what those reasons are, just that I'm really clever and wise, as another squirrel gets decimated by a pipe bomb shooter.

Am I a nice guy, or am I a sick psychopath?

"Can't I just have a sandwich, please? You clearly have infinite sandwiches to hand out."
"No! First I'm going to scrape a load of skin off your leg with this amazing trap."
"Why?"
"It will make you stronger, and I am mysterious. Oh, and this other guy made that trap! That one was made by my evil twin."
"But you know it is there? Why don't you remove it? Plus, I've seen no evidence of this other guy. I highly suspect it was you who put it there."
"Shut up and walk into the trap if you want your sandwich."

To address what you said, yes, I think the world is a horrible place. It is full of suffering. So one of my coping mechanisms is to shut out that suffering which I cannot prevent from my mind, at least some of the time. This is so I can think clearly about getting through life and to be able to help the small amounts of suffering I might be able to prevent. This is because I care deeply about all living things, so for me to function, I can't sit around thinking of suffering I can do nothing about. I accept this is how the world is, and I must do my best. I don't actually delude myself into really thinking the suffering isn't taking place.

To pretend there is some amazing being in charge and that he knows what he's doing, and everything is going to be alright, is another coping mechanism. It doesn't make things any more right, nor does it make it more likely anything will be OK. I use my method of coping, and it has been working. I enjoy life where I can. I'm as happy as I can be given how ill I am and how shit the world is. Why would I enjoy it more because I have an imaginary friend? And if I think this friend has actually inflicted my illness on me, and has created all the shit he's trying to help me cope with, I'd be wanting to get rid of this insane friend.

I choose reality, and I cope with it as best I can. Living in a pretend comic book version of reality is not going to help me. It's the same reality, whatever I think about it.

If religion helps you cope, then that's cool! I'm not trying to take that away from you. But I'm trying to explain why it is not for me, and what the results of your premises actually are, in my opinion. I'm not attacking you, or trying to force you to change your mind about anything. I'm reflecting back what your beliefs sound like to me, and how they would fit into reality.

I get where you're coming from Rob. I'll have to comment more later since I have to run now.

[Iroscato]

"Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life"
Matthew 25:46

"In a similar way, Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding towns gave themselves up to sexual immorality and perversion. They serve as an example of those who suffer the punishment of eternal fire."
Jude 1:7

"“Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels."
Matthew 25:41

Yeah. The problem is that there is more than one way to interpret the Greek word that is being translated as "eternal". Also, there are many more verses in the bible that support universal reconciliation or annihilation than support eternal torment. Of course, annihilation would be eternal since destruction would last forever, the same as the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah.

Ah, so you admit it's a poor translation then. Good, you are showing more critical thinking faculties than 90% or so of the theists I've seen/debated. A little disappointed you haven't addressed my other points though, particularly this one;

Why do you believe christianity's version of events over ANY other religion's?

[Esquilax]

You're totally wrong.  How do you know that it is wrong not to prevent suffering if you could?

... Did you seriously just ask me that? Are you seriously unaware of the reason? Should you even be discussing morality, if you can't figure out something like that?

I literally don't think I know how to answer that question without being insultingly simple: suffering is bad because it causes suffering, and if you are able to stop suffering without expending any effort or any form of cost, as your god is able to do, but you don't, then you have allowed an immoral thing to propagate for no reason. And in some cases we're talking about suffering that god directly causes, without intervening with free will; so what you have here is a god that causes suffering for no reason.

Now, that's dealing with a conception of morality that takes into account consequences and evidence and all that... if your morality is just based on what god wants, then what you're saying by asking that question above is that you believe in a god for whom suffering is moral. Not worth worshiping, that one.

You are providing your  opinion from your limited knowledge to prove that an omnipotent God is not doing the right thing.  I realize that we're discussing a God that is imaginary as far as you are concerned, but if we're assuming that he's omnipotent, then we must assume that he knows more than we do.

A god that is omnipotent has the power to do "the right thing," to accomplish the goal you're claiming he's working toward by inflicting all this suffering, without inflicting that suffering at all. If your god cannot do that, then he is not omnipotent. You're spinning off into some irrelevant thing I didn't say, but that is the point I'm making, so please try to address that in future.

Not that I find this "god knows more than you, so there!" kind of argument to be compelling; if god isn't going to offer any evidence of what he knows, then I'm certainly not obligated to assume benevolent intent. If you don't know what your god's intentions are, how on earth can you be assuming that?