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RE: Does Free Will actually exist? Is there a way to tell?
January 30, 2015 at 11:21 am
(January 30, 2015 at 9:54 am)Rhythm Wrote: You're not teetering, you've flung yourself head first into the void...particularly if you're asking our present company of christians for such a thing. But I made sure not to stare into it first!
"Well, evolution is a theory. It is also a fact. And facts and theories are different things, not rungs in a hierarchy of increasing certainty. Facts are the world's data. Theories are structures of ideas that explain and interpret facts. Facts don't go away when scientists debate rival theories to explain them. Einstein's theory of gravitation replaced Newton's in this century, but apples didn't suspend themselves in midair, pending the outcome. And humans evolved from ape- like ancestors whether they did so by Darwin's proposed mechanism or by some other yet to be discovered."
-Stephen Jay Gould
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RE: Does Free Will actually exist? Is there a way to tell?
January 30, 2015 at 11:39 am
(January 30, 2015 at 9:31 am)Tonus Wrote: As far as I know, the Bible never flat-out says that god is omni-potent/scient/present. It's possible to reach that interpretation via careful selection of texts and just as conveniently possible to point out that the words themselves aren't there. It refers to god as "the almighty" and I'm sure that there are any number of ways to interpret that (including a common apologist favorite, "this is what the word is in its original language, and how the people of the time understood it"). As far as interpretation goes:
If he put his hat on his head. How many people are there and who is wearing the hat?
The 'omni' issue. If god is not 'omni', then god is no more powerful than Ra, Anubis, Zeus or any other mythological god, ergo, god is mythological also. There are 'gods' that were 'omni' that the theists no longer believe in. I guess they prefer a less powerful god.
You make people miserable and there's nothing they can do about it, just like god.
-- Homer Simpson
God has no place within these walls, just as facts have no place within organized religion.
-- Superintendent Chalmers
Science is like a blabbermouth who ruins a movie by telling you how it ends. There are some things we don't want to know. Important things.
-- Ned Flanders
Once something's been approved by the government, it's no longer immoral.
-- The Rev Lovejoy
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RE: Does Free Will actually exist? Is there a way to tell?
January 30, 2015 at 11:53 am
(January 30, 2015 at 11:39 am)IATIA Wrote: The 'omni' issue. If god is not 'omni', then god is no more powerful than Ra, Anubis, Zeus or any other mythological god, ergo, god is mythological also. There are 'gods' that were 'omni' that the theists no longer believe in. I guess they prefer a less powerful god. The Bible paints a picture of god as the Toughest Guy in the Room, especially in the early books of the OT. For example, when Moses is sent to perform some miracles to Pharaoh, the Egyptian sorcerers are able to perform the early ones as well. But over time they find themselves over-matched. Even so, the Egyptian forces are sufficiently unimpressed that they quickly decide that they want their slaves back, chasing the Israelites into the sea and forcing god to perform another miracle to foil them. He's not as intimidating as you'd expect from Omniweh.
It's only over time, as the legend is more established, that he ironically becomes more ethereal and more and more powerful. As with any legendary character, the farther you push him away, the more exaggerated the story becomes. Eventually, he's a completely undetectable being of immense power and influence who uses that massive power to make it seem as if he was never there. 
"Well, evolution is a theory. It is also a fact. And facts and theories are different things, not rungs in a hierarchy of increasing certainty. Facts are the world's data. Theories are structures of ideas that explain and interpret facts. Facts don't go away when scientists debate rival theories to explain them. Einstein's theory of gravitation replaced Newton's in this century, but apples didn't suspend themselves in midair, pending the outcome. And humans evolved from ape- like ancestors whether they did so by Darwin's proposed mechanism or by some other yet to be discovered."
-Stephen Jay Gould
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RE: Does Free Will actually exist? Is there a way to tell?
January 31, 2015 at 12:37 am
(This post was last modified: January 31, 2015 at 12:39 am by Godscreated.)
(January 30, 2015 at 11:53 am)Tonus Wrote: [quote='IATIA' pid='860407' dateline='1422632376']The 'omni' issue. If god is not 'omni', then god is no more powerful than Ra, Anubis, Zeus or any other mythological god, ergo, god is mythological also. There are 'gods' that were 'omni' that the theists no longer believe in. I guess they prefer a less powerful god.
Quote:It's only over time, as the legend is more established, that he ironically becomes more ethereal and more and more powerful
In the beginning God created the heavens and earth. From Genesis 1:1.
This should answer any question of omniscience, omnipotent and omnipresent.
Also you said something important in an earlier post, God being able to see all, hear all, and know everyone's thoughts, this is omnipresent. The scriptures tell us God our Father will not be in the presence of sin. Scriptures tell us that God the Holy Spirit does reside in those who choose Christ as their Savior. Scripture tells use that God the Son is seated at the right hand of God the Father.
GC
(January 30, 2015 at 8:58 am)Rhythm Wrote: Good to know that you think this omnipresence bit is as fishy as we think it is GC. Now, if you think this omniscience bit is as fishy as we think it is then the god in your head won't have any contradictory issues with a concept of "free will" or an unwritten fate.
That where you stand GC, with me, in saying that "god" is neither omnipresent nor omniscient?
What kind of crazy crap have you dreamed up now, you are as delusional as they come.
GC
God loves those who believe and those who do not and the same goes for me, you have no choice in this matter. That puts the matter of total free will to rest.
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RE: Does Free Will actually exist? Is there a way to tell?
January 31, 2015 at 4:35 am
(January 31, 2015 at 12:37 am)Godschild Wrote: What kind of crazy crap have you dreamed up now, you are as delusional as they come.
GC
Were you talking to yourself?
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RE: Does Free Will actually exist? Is there a way to tell?
January 31, 2015 at 5:26 am
(January 31, 2015 at 12:37 am)Godschild Wrote: In the beginning God created the heavens and earth. From Genesis 1:1.
This should answer any question of omniscience, omnipotent and omnipresent..
GC
Why are you unable to actually say it GC?
The couple times you answered me the same way. Why can't you type the words out instead of answering with a question or a non answer?
What's the deal? Ashamed?
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RE: Does Free Will actually exist? Is there a way to tell?
January 31, 2015 at 8:23 am
(January 31, 2015 at 12:37 am)Godschild Wrote: In the beginning God created the heavens and earth. From Genesis 1:1.
This should answer any question of omniscience, omnipotent and omnipresent. We'd have to know how he did it in order to say for sure. 
Godschild Wrote:The scriptures tell us God our Father will not be in the presence of sin. I think it means that sin is something done without god's approval. You can say to someone "I'm not with you regarding that opinion" but it doesn't really mean you are at their physical side, just that you disagree. If a person sins, god would still know about it, so on some level he is everywhere and knows everything.
"Well, evolution is a theory. It is also a fact. And facts and theories are different things, not rungs in a hierarchy of increasing certainty. Facts are the world's data. Theories are structures of ideas that explain and interpret facts. Facts don't go away when scientists debate rival theories to explain them. Einstein's theory of gravitation replaced Newton's in this century, but apples didn't suspend themselves in midair, pending the outcome. And humans evolved from ape- like ancestors whether they did so by Darwin's proposed mechanism or by some other yet to be discovered."
-Stephen Jay Gould
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RE: Does Free Will actually exist? Is there a way to tell?
January 31, 2015 at 9:04 am
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RE: Does Free Will actually exist? Is there a way to tell?
January 31, 2015 at 11:57 am
I think what GC is trying to say is that he wants his god to have all the benefits of omnipresence while being able deny it when it becomes a problem.
Even if the open windows of science at first make us shiver after the cozy indoor warmth of traditional humanizing myths, in the end the fresh air brings vigor, and the great spaces have a splendor of their own - Bertrand Russell
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RE: Does Free Will actually exist? Is there a way to tell?
January 31, 2015 at 1:36 pm
(This post was last modified: January 31, 2015 at 1:53 pm by Godscreated.)
(January 31, 2015 at 5:26 am)h4ym4n Wrote: (January 31, 2015 at 12:37 am)Godschild Wrote: In the beginning God created the heavens and earth. From Genesis 1:1.
This should answer any question of omniscience, omnipotent and omnipresent..
GC
Why are you unable to actually say it GC?
The couple times you answered me the same way. Why can't you type the words out instead of answering with a question or a non answer?
What's the deal? Ashamed?
What are you talking about, make yourself clear please.
GC
(January 31, 2015 at 8:23 am)Tonus Wrote: (January 31, 2015 at 12:37 am)Godschild Wrote: In the beginning God created the heavens and earth. From Genesis 1:1.
This should answer any question of omniscience, omnipotent and omnipresent. We'd have to know how he did it in order to say for sure.
Do you really think we could comprehend the process of creation.
Godschild Wrote:The scriptures tell us God our Father will not be in the presence of sin.
Quote:I think it means that sin is something done without god's approval. You can say to someone "I'm not with you regarding that opinion" but it doesn't really mean you are at their physical side, just that you disagree. If a person sins, god would still know about it, so on some level he is everywhere and knows everything.
Yes you're right, God knows without being physically present, I'm not sure how that works being a spirit, whatever that in itself entails.
I do disagree about what sin is if you're applying your definition to all sin. God would never give approval for something that would separate one further from Him.
GC
(January 31, 2015 at 11:57 am)Faith No More Wrote: I think what GC is trying to say is that he wants his god to have all the benefits of omnipresence while being able deny it when it becomes a problem.
Absolutely not, understanding omnipresence for God goes beyond the understanding for most, not all, but most here.
GC
(January 31, 2015 at 9:04 am)robvalue Wrote: ![[Image: 57c46eef3fcebd99668f5aab1647b23443ea6b33...2ea10c.jpg]](https://images.weserv.nl/?url=s2.quickmeme.com%2Fimg%2F57%2F57c46eef3fcebd99668f5aab1647b23443ea6b3346c2b6f5970c3b07082ea10c.jpg)
They were only fooling themselves. Same thing you do every day.
GC
God loves those who believe and those who do not and the same goes for me, you have no choice in this matter. That puts the matter of total free will to rest.
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