Miracle

[paulpablo]

You cannot twist the reality merely by twisting your tongue. When God sends something, He sends it down by using His Angles, by using meteorites, by giving inspiration, or by any other mean He wishes to use.

Not trying to twist anything, the translations I used are availiable online just like the translations you used, I'm simply coming to the same conclusion you have already stated which is that the term "sent down" can mean various things.
in the quran "sent down" can mean giving inspiration, using angels, meteorites, or just any means. This is YOUR claim.

So the quran uses the phrase sent down to mean various things and you can't prove it does mean meteorites, and in actual fact the quran uses the phrase sent down while talking about many things and people who definitely weren't send down in meteorites.
You admit you can't prove the quran is talking about meteorites, nothing remotely resembling meteorites is used in the verse and the only thing it does say is "sent down" which as we both agree can mean multiple things.

[paulpablo]

Ok it's time to do some role play and go back into time......


Let's go back to the times of Muhammad and talk to some people about the verses in the quran.

First of all let's talk to Abdul, he has no knowledge of pain receptors or science or anything else.

me) Hey Abdul I have a verse I'm going to read to you. You tell me what you think it means and if it makes sense to you, or if it's giving you new scientific knowledge you never heard of before.

Abdul) ok

me) Indeed, those who disbelieve in Our verses - We will drive them into a Fire. Every time their skins are roasted through We will replace them with other skins so they may taste the punishment. Indeed, Allah is ever Exalted in Might and Wise.

Abdul) It means that god is punishing the disbelievers by burning their skin, when skin burns through to the flesh below it disappears, gets hard black and flaky and blisters up and so on, so god is replacing the skin over and over so they will continually feel pain.  No I don't think this verse is telling me anything new, there's no words I don't understand.

me) are you not confused by the verse? Does it go against anything you already know about how pain is caused?

Abdul) Well I know burning hurts, and if you burned through my skin then replaced it then it would hurt even more.


ok now lets leave Abdul, lets visit his cousin, Ali who's a bit of a healing expert among the tribes.

Me) Hi Ali, do you know about harsh burns and what happens to the skin of people who have these burns?

Ali) Yes the skin gets charred black, and people who have suffered these burns feel no pain in that area after it has been burned.

me) ok let me show you a verse and see if you understand it or if it is giving you new information you didn't already know.

 Indeed, those who disbelieve in Our verses - We will drive them into a Fire. Every time their skins are roasted through We will replace them with other skins so they may taste the punishment. Indeed, Allah is ever Exalted in Might and Wise.

Ali) Well it simply means god is punishing people by burning their skin and once the skin is roasted he replaces it with more so the person can the pain of the skin being roasted again, I know the symptoms of burns and I know burning hurts so yes of course this verse makes sense to me.

me) so is it giving you new information you didn't know?

Ali) I knew burning hurts, and in my experience as a healer among the tribes I've witnessed harsh burns and I know burned areas don't feel pain so the answer is no, this verse is telling me nothing new.


Ok now I'm going to do another role play about what DEFINITELY WILL NOT HAPPEN if you have this discussion with people from the past.

me) Hey Abdul let me show you this verse
Indeed, those who disbelieve in Our verses - We will drive them into a Fire. Every time their skins are roasted through We will replace them with other skins so they may taste the punishment. Indeed, Allah is ever Exalted in Might and Wise.

Abdul) WOWWWWWWWW, I used to think pain originated from other source and not the skin.  Now I know that the skin contains pain receptors and it sends signals to the brain.  This verse is a scientific miracle and has revealed to me why burning hurts!

What I'm basically trying to show is...........

YOU DON'T NEED TO KNOW HOW PAIN RECEPTORS WORK TO UNDERSTAND THIS VERSE.
THIS VERSE GIVES NO INFORMATION ABOUT PAIN RECEPTORS.
THIS VERSE DOES NOT CONTRADICT ANY TEACHINGS ABOUT THE ORIGINS OF PAIN FROM AN ANCIENT UNDERSTANDING.

[paulpablo]

If in some unfortunate accident a person is caught by the fire then which part of the body you think get exposed to the fire first. SKIN. Until fire find its way to internal organs, the unfortunate person might not be living anymore.

Yes the fire will burn the skin first, but skin is very very thin, a human being suffers heat stroke and other heat related deaths just by being in a hot room sometimes, if you throw them in a fire and ONLY replace their thin layer of skin to protect them it will do nothing to stop the heat reaching the brain, the veins and so on and so on.  Another way to look at it is if you walk into an oven and you have invincible skin that heals at a supernatural rate, this doesn't mean the rest of you will be invincible, your blood will boil your brain will dehydrate you will have some sort of heat stroke.  The heat conducting through the air will be enough to kill you.
It just simply won't work.
If you're abiding by the rules of biology and want to keep someone alive and in pain, throwing them in a fire and only replacing their skins won't work. Their brain will shut down from death and the pain receptors will be sending messages to non functional brain.

[paulpablo]

In Quran, wherever there is a phrase “Allah misguides people” or something similar to it that is obviously for people who are transgressors and intentionally go against the laws of God in their arrogance. I had made this point clear in my example of wise King and his peaceful nation.

For example, same sex marriage is against the human nature. A person should be rebellious to divine laws in order to cross the limits for engaging himself/herself in homosexual activities. I do not know any scripture that has not condemned this act.

I asked you do you believe Allah misguides people, that was the question, yes or no?

[paulpablo]

Do you know Arabic or fabricating your guestimates based on different translations only? If your first language is Arabic than whole of your argument is no more than a gibberish. If you do not know Arabic then you should consult with your Arabic Professor first before you jump over to craft your critique.

Be careful to use the correct words while accusing other people of talking gibberish.  Surely you mean if my first language ISN'T Arabic THEN THE whole of my argument is no more than a gibberish    gibberish.
It doesn't matter which translation of Arabic you use of if you yourself are a professor of Arabic, pick whatever translation you want, none of them will include anything that involves meteorites and they will all use the phrase "Sent down" which we agree can mean various things.

[Longhorn]

But wheeeeere is the germ theory? Hmmm?

[Harris]

If you kick me in my balls I will know I've felt pain, I won't know the exact scientific mechanism for this, but I will know that what you have done has hurt and I'll crouch over and probably yell something like "AAAAAAHHHHH YOU JUST KICKED ME IN THE BALLS."
I'm not likely to stand there and say "Well according to my scientific knowledge of the testes I have no reason to be in pain right now.

The verse is talking about pain caused by fire (burning sensation) in the skin, not by kicking the balls.

It doesn't matter if they thought the brain was responsible for pain it doesn't matter if they thought the dog next door was responsible for origin of pain, the quran does NOT say if the brain is responsible or if the skin is responsible, it simply says burning of the skin hurts, and allah will replace the skin once it has been burned through in order for it to hurt again. PEOPLE IN THE PAST KNEW THAT BURNING HURT.

Even animals know that burning hurts. However, people in the past thought heart causes the feeling of pain and afterwards they thought that brain causes the feeling of pain and both those concepts were wrong. No one was thinking that skin is the core cause of burning sensation.

This has nothing to do with what I said in anyway shape or form.  First of all you're wrong, burn patients feel pain just not in the area they suffered the burn.  Second of all I didn't say that you were assuming that 3rd or 4th degree burn patients don't feel pain.  I'll copy and paste what I previously said WITH the important part you missed out underlined and in bold.

If you assume that this verse is giving you information that there will be no sensation of pain again because the receptors are damaged THAT IS AN ASSUMPTION.

“Patients feel pain just not in the area they suffered the burn.” These are your words.

That is exactly what science is telling and I am saying the same thing. I am not concerned about other kind of pains that patient might experience. The verse has conveyed this main idea without going into details.

I typed flesh instead of skin, just replace the word flesh with skin in what I typed and my point still remains.

You have written:

“The verse isn't saying that when the flesh is burned there will be no sensation of pain again because the pain receptors are damaged, what it is simply saying is that god will repetitively burn this persons flesh.”

At your request, I am now replacing FLESH with SKIN:

“The verse isn't saying that when the SKIN is burned there will be no sensation of pain again because the pain receptors are damaged, what it is simply saying is that god will repetitively burn this persons SKIN.”

God will burn the skin repetitively by giving FRESH SKIN repeatedly to the sinner after its destruction.

Not trying to twist anything, the translations I used are availiable online just like the translations you used, I'm simply coming to the same conclusion you have already stated which is that the term "sent down" can mean various things.

in the quran "sent down" can mean giving inspiration, using angels, meteorites, or just any means. This is YOUR claim.

So the quran uses the phrase sent down to mean various things and you can't prove it does mean meteorites, and in actual fact the quran uses the phrase sent down while talking about many things and people who definitely weren't send down in meteorites.

You admit you can't prove the quran is talking about meteorites, nothing remotely resembling meteorites is used in the verse and the only thing it does say is "sent down" which as we both agree can mean multiple things.

The main idea here is that God has sent down the Iron to earth after the creation of the earth. That iron was not part of the primordial earth. Today science is saying exactly the same thing. It does not matter how God has sent it down. The modern scientific discoveries are in absolute conformity with the Quranic verse.

“Extrapolating from observations of the cooling of the inner core, it is estimated that the current solid inner core formed approximately 2 to 4 billion years ago from what was originally an entirely molten core. If true, this would mean that the Earth's solid inner core is not a primordial feature that was present during the planet's formation, but a feature younger than the Earth (the Earth is about 4.5 billion years old).”

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inner_core

Ok it's time to do some role play and go back into time......

Let's go back to the times of Muhammad and talk to some people about the verses in the quran.

First of all let's talk to Abdul, he has no knowledge of pain receptors or science or anything else.

me) Hey Abdul I have a verse I'm going to read to you. You tell me what you think it means and if it makes sense to you, or if it's giving you new scientific knowledge you never heard of before.

Abdul) ok

me) Indeed, those who disbelieve in Our verses - We will drive them into a Fire. Every time their skins are roasted through We will replace them with other skins so they may taste the punishment. Indeed, Allah is ever Exalted in Might and Wise.

Abdul) It means that god is punishing the disbelievers by burning their skin, when skin burns through to the flesh below it disappears, gets hard black and flaky and blisters up and so on, so god is replacing the skin over and over so they will continually feel pain.  No I don't think this verse is telling me anything new, there's no words I don't understand.

me) are you not confused by the verse? Does it go against anything you already know about how pain is caused?

Abdul) Well I know burning hurts, and if you burned through my skin then replaced it then it would hurt even more.


ok now lets leave Abdul, lets visit his cousin, Ali who's a bit of a healing expert among the tribes.

Me) Hi Ali, do you know about harsh burns and what happens to the skin of people who have these burns?

Ali) Yes the skin gets charred black, and people who have suffered these burns feel no pain in that area after it has been burned.

me) ok let me show you a verse and see if you understand it or if it is giving you new information you didn't already know.

Indeed, those who disbelieve in Our verses - We will drive them into a Fire. Every time their skins are roasted through We will replace them with other skins so they may taste the punishment. Indeed, Allah is ever Exalted in Might and Wise.

Ali) Well it simply means god is punishing people by burning their skin and once the skin is roasted he replaces it with more so the person can the pain of the skin being roasted again, I know the symptoms of burns and I know burning hurts so yes of course this verse makes sense to me.

me) so is it giving you new information you didn't know?

Ali) I knew burning hurts, and in my experience as a healer among the tribes I've witnessed harsh burns and I know burned areas don't feel pain so the answer is no, this verse is telling me nothing new.


Ok now I'm going to do another role play about what DEFINITELY WILL NOT HAPPEN if you have this discussion with people from the past.

me) Hey Abdul let me show you this verse
Indeed, those who disbelieve in Our verses - We will drive them into a Fire. Every time their skins are roasted through We will replace them with other skins so they may taste the punishment. Indeed, Allah is ever Exalted in Might and Wise.

Abdul) WOWWWWWWWW, I used to think pain originated from other source and not the skin.  Now I know that the skin contains pain receptors and it sends signals to the brain.  This verse is a scientific miracle and has revealed to me why burning hurts!

What I'm basically trying to show is...........

YOU DON'T NEED TO KNOW HOW PAIN RECEPTORS WORK TO UNDERSTAND THIS VERSE.
THIS VERSE GIVES NO INFORMATION ABOUT PAIN RECEPTORS.
THIS VERSE DOES NOT CONTRADICT ANY TEACHINGS ABOUT THE ORIGINS OF PAIN FROM AN ANCIENT UNDERSTANDING.

Why is Quran mentioning, “Roasted through?”
Why is Quran mentioning that replacement of skin is necessary for them to feel pain?

This verse says:

“as often as their SKINS are ROASTED THROUGH, We shall change them for FRESH SKINS, that they may TASTE THE PENALTY”.

It is clearly stating that they would suffer burning to an extent that their skin will lose the characteristic of feeling pain, thus indicating that skin if burnt to a certain extent will lose the specific feeling of burning.

You are sitting in 2015, and trying to transform yourself to an illiterate Arab who lived 15 centuries ago. The only thing they were good at was “verbal speech” and that is all.

I had given you comprehensive references from history of the pain theories and in response; you are quoting discussions of some unknown naïve fellows of 2015.

If you think that people knew that pain resides in Skin not in heart or in brain then why do not you Quote a reference from 6th or 7th century which clearly proves that people were aware of the fact that burning a skin to a particular extent can take away its ability to feel the pain?

Yes the fire will burn the skin first, but skin is very very thin, a human being suffers heat stroke and other heat related deaths just by being in a hot room sometimes, if you throw them in a fire and ONLY replace their thin layer of skin to protect them it will do nothing to stop the heat reaching the brain, the veins and so on and so on.  Another way to look at it is if you walk into an oven and you have invincible skin that heals at a supernatural rate, this doesn't mean the rest of you will be invincible, your blood will boil your brain will dehydrate you will have some sort of heat stroke.  The heat conducting through the air will be enough to kill you.

It just simply won't work.

If you're abiding by the rules of biology and want to keep someone alive and in pain, throwing them in a fire and only replacing their skins won't work. Their brain will shut down from death and the pain receptors will be sending messages to non functional brain.

If someone has invincible skin that heals at a supernatural rate then that skin would not allow fire to penetrate through it and person feels continuous burning because along with the healing of skin pain receptors would also be healed at a supernatural rate.

Furthermore, in the second life God would make people immortal. There they will enjoy forever or they will suffer forever but no one would die.

“And he that will be given his Record in his left hand, will say: "Ah! Would that my Record had not been given to me!””
"And that I had never realised how my account (stood)!”
"AH! WOULD THAT (DEATH) HAD MADE AN END OF ME!”

Al Haaqqah (69)
-Verses 25 to 27-

I asked you do you believe Allah misguides people, that was the question, yes or no?

If I am not mistaken then I have already given you the answer at least three times.

God (if He Wills) misguides arrogant and mischievous people who show their rebellious characteristic against God.

God guides those who strive to live by submitting their wills to the Will of God and He guides naive people who do not show the signs of arrogance.

Be careful to use the correct words while accusing other people of talking gibberish.  Surely you mean if my first language ISN'T Arabic THEN THE whole of my argument is no more than a gibberish    gibberish.

I am saying IF YOU KNOW ARABIC then your whole argument is GIBBERISH.

It doesn't matter which translation of Arabic you use of if you yourself are a professor of Arabic, pick whatever translation you want, none of them will include anything that involves meteorites and they will all use the phrase "Sent down" which we agree can mean various things.

Here you are trying to transform a butterfly into a donkey.

I am again giving you the word   أَنزْلْنَا   so you can check the meaning in Google Translate yourself.

If you do not know Arabic then you first consult with your Arabic professor before you give any of your conclusions.

You are literally saying Butterfly means Donkey.

By the way, you have already acknowledged in your previous response that:

“This verse says basically that god sent messengers, and with them he sent down scriptures, and HE SENT DOWN IRON.”

So then, what is your problem?

But wheeeeere is the germ theory? Hmmm?

Please provide quotes about the Germ Theory of some famous Muslims scholars as a reference so I would be able to structure my response.

[bennyboy]

Harris, even if early Muslim scholars invented/discovered/were aware of some science, so what? It's only a miracle if this knowledge is attained through supernatural revelation, i.e. from God rather than from observation and study.

You ramble on about passages that you say show awareness of scientific facts or principles that they could not have known. But if they wrote them down, they knew them. IF they knew these things, then the question is HOW did they know them?

If they knew science only through direct revelation from God, and not from their own observations and study, then either God was hopelessly stingy with the amount and quality of science he chose to reveal to them, or they were hopelessly retarded and uneducated in understanding, transcribing, and/or transmitting the complete body of all science, past present and future, which he must have revealed to them.

[Longhorn]

Whaat? I'm asking you to show me where I can find the germ theory in the quran. I mean, that would be pretty dang useful to the 7th century muslims. Why didn't Allah find it appropriate to tell them about it?

[paulpablo]

Why is Quran mentioning, “Roasted through?”
Why is Quran mentioning that replacement of skin is necessary for them to feel pain?

This verse says:

“as often as their SKINS are ROASTED THROUGH, We shall change them for FRESH SKINS, that they may TASTE THE PENALTY”.

It says they may taste the penalty, meaning cause them pain.

If I say I'm going to slap you across the face so you feel pain, I'm not saying that your face is needed for you to feel pain. 

Additionally if the quran is saying the skin is not necessary it's wrong because other organs will be damaged by the fire also causing them pain.  If you magically remove all of a persons skin from their body and set them on fire they will still feel pain.