The right to mis-define oneself

[Thumpalumpacus]

Why do you keep fucking putting words in my mouth?  Did I say I speak for all men?  No.  I believe MANY men would be traumatized by an unexpected last-minute reveal.  Yes, I'm one of them.  And I've heard many others say similar things.

Okay, I'll back off of "all" in the quoted post. But quite frankly, I don't think most would, and you touting your personal feelings in rebuttal is thin gruel indeed.

Go out into the street and ask a couple hundred random men if they would be traumatized if in a sexual situation, their supposedly female date whipped out her penis.  If you think the percent who would answer yes is non-zero, or trivially small, then I think you're deluded.  But until that is actually done, then I'm perfectly aware that I could be wrong.  Maybe the majority would say something like, "Traumatized?  Nah.  I'd just get the hell outta there."  Based on how I've seen many men act, I believe the average reaction would be stronger than that.

In case you haven't noticed, my issue is not with numbers, it's with your use of the word "traumatized". I'd suggest you go look that up before you reply to this post. This would cause psychological injury to you? Are you fucking kidding?

I never really accused you of lying.  I said I think you're lying, because it's so apparent to me that many men would find a late reveal traumatizing that I can't see how anyone would not believe that to be the case.

Hey, fuck off. You're trying to lay the accusation even as you deny it. "I think you're lying" is an accusation of lying, but you apparently don't even have the guts to own your positive assertions, much less your unspoken premises.

 

But I also said I could be wrong, and that we should attempt research.  If it turns out that the majority of men wouldn't be traumatized by a late reveal, then I would learn a lot of interesting things: 1) some people legitimately believe what you're saying, and you are not just claiming so for argument's sake; 2) my own ideas don't represent the norm; 3) a transwoman may not actually be committing a serious offense by not telling a potential partner about her penis before she gets into an encounter.

I'm open to that possibility.  I just don't think it represents reality.

Thankfully, your education is not my responsibility. We're exchanging opinions here. You're uncomfortable because your opinion is being challenged, but you want me to do your homework for you. That isn't happening. I know what traumatized means. I don't think most men in the circumstances you're laying out would be traumatized. My stepdad was traumatized by his combat in Vietnam; he woke up in the middle of the night screaming often enough for me to think that your feelings about being bamboozled on a hypothetical one-night stand wouldn't be of that caliber.

I can fully and comfortably acknowledge that it's backpedalling.

Except that you didn't until I pointed it out. Not the height of intellectual honesty there.

 The sexual comments were in support of an idea-- and I care more about that idea than about debating exactly what constitutes rape, sexual assault, or just bad manners.  I don't need late reveals to be rape, or even assault, to make my point: that defining one's self as something does not make one that thing.

Then perhaps you ought not make such an asinine comparison? And then perhaps when that foolish comparison is pointed out for its foolishness, you ought to simply admit it, rather than dig in your heels? And then perhaps when you do finally relent, you ought to acknowledge that you made a poor choice of words, or you weren't really thinking?

In case you haven't noticed, I'm not, nor have I ever, argued against your main point. The only issue that I've taken up with you is your mindless comparison, clearly made with little thought, subsequently defended with great vigor, and never supported with any depth. You're better than this -- or at least you should be.

I think most men faced with a last minute reveal would at the very least say, "If you're a woman, why do you have a penis?"  You guys are making it out like this would be an unfair and prejudicial question: why ask, if a person with a penis is a woman just because that's how they identify?

I'd be pissed, and embarrassed, too -- no doubt. I wouldn't be traumatized, nor would I feel like I'd been raped. And before you ask what I know about sexual abuse, I'll tell you -- I was molested as a child. I know a little about carrying psychological injury around.

I think most people, upon discovering that a woman, who is not adopted, has two parents so white they gleam in the sun, would ask, "In what sense can you be said to be 'colored' except for the fact that you apply tanning cream?"  Why ask, if identifying as black is sufficient to BE black?

Again, I've never argued against your main point, only the thoughtless comments you've made supporting it. Unless you've been raped, you would probably do well to leave rape comparisons out of it. That has been the only issue I've had with your points in this thread. If you're going to compare a TS/TG surprise to rape, then tell us: what grounds do you have for this comparison? Have you been raped?

[Thumpalumpacus]

Oh, juicy, juicy irony. Thou taste so sweet.

Not seeing it.

Thus the irony.  

[SteelCurtain]

In case you haven't noticed, I'm not, nor have I ever, argued against your main point. The only issue that I've taken up with you is your mindless comparison, clearly made with little thought, subsequently defended with great vigor, and never supported with any depth. You're better than this -- or at least you should be.

That's just the thing. No one is arguing against his main point. He just needs us to be, for some reason. The only thing any of us were doing is outlining the minutiae of this issue, and trying to get across the point that sex and gender are two different things.

[bennyboy]

Hey, fuck off.  You're trying to lay the accusation even as you deny it. "I think you're lying" is an accusation of lying, but you apparently don't even have the guts to own your positive assertions, much less your unspoken premises.

Stop making everything a pissing match. I don't have the guts? Well, I'll show you, you yellow-bellied good-for nothing low-lying snake in the grass!

Seriously, though, "I think you're lying because X seems so obvious to me that it's hard to believe others don't see it" is not the same as "You're a liar."

Thankfully, your education is not my responsibility.  We're exchanging opinions here.  You're uncomfortable because your opinion is being challenged, but you want me to do your homework for you.  That isn't happening.  I know what traumatized means. I don't think most men in the circumstances you're laying out would be traumatized. My stepdad was traumatized by his combat in Vietnam; he woke up in the middle of the night screaming often enough for me to think that your feelings about being bamboozled on a hypothetical one-night stand wouldn't be of that caliber.

Okay, so you and I have different perceptions of how the average male may feel. You suggest that's because I'm projecting my own attitudes on the general population-- but I've seen enough men express similar opinions that I don't believe that to be the case. I think it's likely that you are ALSO projecting your own values onto others, and that those have been validated by your own different experiences of other's men's behavior in certain situation. But whether it's rape, or assault, or just rudeness, it doesn't really matter with regards to the OP. The OP is about the difference between living AS something and the reality of BEING that thing, and I do agree that gender issues are less cut-and-dry as other issues. At least I hope nobody here will draw a line from transgender issues to transracial ones as in the OP.

Except that you didn't until I pointed it out.  Not the height of intellectual honesty there.

I think you're being an asshole right now. You challenged me on backpedalling and I fucking agreed with you, and stated why I was changing my tack. What more do you expect?

I'd be pissed, and embarrassed, too -- no doubt.  I wouldn't be traumatized, nor would I feel like I'd been raped.

Well I WOULD be traumatized, and why should I be embarrassed to state so? In my life, I've had an old guy pee on me, a middle-aged guy jerk off to me when I was a teen in a catholic charities hostel, another guy pick me up off a cold bench, take me home (again as a teen) and ask me if I ever masturbated, and a variety of other near-misses and mishaps. None of this is rape, but it made me feel dirty and uncomfortable, and I think in all cases it was a form of self-validation through sexual or pseudo-sexual aggression.

And that's what you're not getting. A woman who went home with me and had sex with me is providing me with a happy and validating experience, because I'm straight. A transwoman who goes home with me and surprising me is acting aggressively in a situation which makes me vulnerable, which I think is a non-trivial violation of my personhood. The trauma doesn't come from the wiener. It comes from the fail to disclose

 And before you ask what I know about sexual abuse, I'll tell you -- I was molested as a child.  I know a little about carrying psychological injury around.

Join the club.

Again, I've never argued against your main point, only the thoughtless comments you've made supporting it. Unless you've been raped, you would probably do well to leave rape comparisons out of it. That has been the only issue I've had with your points in this thread. If you're going to compare a TS/TG surprise to rape, then tell us: what grounds do you have for this comparison? Have you been raped?

I don't need to compare it to rape. My point is that if a natural-born woman and a transgender person with a penis go into a sexual encounter with the exact same behavior, then I'd consider the actions of the former as validating, and the actions of the latter as aggressive, invalidating, and offensive. The difference matters, and cannot be trivialized. . . because one is a woman, and the other, at least physically, is not-- no matter how he/she identifies.

[robvalue]

Just to throw in my two pence, I find it very hard to believe that many people would be traumatised by this "late reveal". Sure, maybe a few people would. But trauma is a very strong word, maybe that's the problem here. I have what I suspect is trauma from my childhood, buried so deep even therapy hasn't brought it out, but its effects on me are obvious. So much so that my wife cannot believe I'm not putting it on when it happens. To suggest that seeing a misplaced penis is going to cause anything like the same level of psychological damage is baffling me.

And really, I find it also extremely hard to believe anyone would get to that late stage, where undress is imminent, but not have said anything at all. So I think this is a fairly non-existent person, except maybe a few very strange people. Maybe I'm wrong about this, if the data is out there!

[Thumpalumpacus]

Stop making everything a pissing match.  I don't have the guts?  Well, I'll show you, you yellow-bellied good-for nothing low-lying snake in the grass!

Seriously, though, "I think you're lying because X seems so obvious to me that it's hard to believe others don't see it" is not the same as "You're a liar."

Seriously, you deny calling me a liar, then call me a liar again, and then bristle when I tell you to fuck off?

Your explanation holds no water, because there is a difference between lying and making a mistake. I don't have the time nor the patience to argue with someone who cannot be bothered to learn such a simple distinction, and prefers insulting someone's integrity to learning their own native tongue.

Okay, so you and I have different perceptions of how the average male may feel.  You suggest that's because I'm projecting my own attitudes on the general population-- but I've seen enough men express similar opinions that I don't believe that to be the case.

I am going to ask you once more for numbers. How many?

 

I think it's likely that you are ALSO projecting your own values onto others, and that those have been validated by your own different experiences of other's men's behavior in certain situation.

Having managed an adult video store in SoCal which functioned as a meeting place for people at the small ends of the sexual bell curve, I'm comfortable with the knowledge that my opinion is informed by knowing many of the folks we're talking about here. I've yet to see any qualification of yours beyond a finely-honed sense of "eeeeww".

 But whether it's rape, or assault, or just rudeness, it doesn't really matter with regards to the OP.  The OP is about the difference between living AS something and the reality of BEING that thing, and I do agree that gender issues are less cut-and-dry as other issues.  At least I hope nobody here will draw a line from transgender issues to transracial ones as in the OP.

Since you don't seem to have read it even though I've posted it at least three times, I will repeat it, last time, because I'm tired of this conversation and of you in general. Last time: I am not arguing your main point, only against your thoughtless comparison.

Except that you didn't until I pointed it out.  Not the height of intellectual honesty there.

I think you're being an asshole right now.  You challenged me on backpedalling and I fucking agreed with you, and stated why I was changing my tack.  What more do you expect?

Well I WOULD be traumatized, and why should I be embarrassed to state so?  In my life, I've had an old guy pee on me, a middle-aged guy jerk off to me when I was a teen in a catholic charities hostel, another guy pick me up off a cold bench, take me home (again as a teen) and ask me if I ever masturbated, and a variety of other near-misses and mishaps.  None of this is rape, but it made me feel dirty and uncomfortable, and I think in all cases it was a form of self-validation through sexual or pseudo-sexual aggression.

Wait, who said you should be embarrasssed to state your opinion? I surely didn't. Go on, quote the post and link to it.

Oh, that's right, you can't, because I didn't say that. I said that I think your comparison is thoughtless.

And that's what you're not getting.  A woman who went home with me and had sex with me is providing me with a happy and validating experience, because I'm straight.  A transwoman who goes home with me and surprising me is acting aggressively in a situation which makes me vulnerable, which I think is a non-trivial violation of my personhood.  The trauma doesn't come from the wiener.  It comes from the fail to disclose

Calling that an aggressive act is silly. I've linked to the definition, for your edification.

Join the club.

I'm sorry to hear of it.

I don't need to compare it to rape.

Yet you did, and when the bullshit comparison was pointed out, instead of discarding it as unnecessary, you dug your heels in. The inability to admit error is bad enough; embracing unnecessary error is folly multiplied.

 My point is that if a natural-born woman and a transgender person with a penis go into a sexual encounter with the exact same behavior, then I'd consider the actions of the former as validating, and the actions of the latter as aggressive, invalidating, and offensive.  The difference matters, and cannot be trivialized. . . because one is a woman, and the other, at least physically, is not-- no matter how he/she identifies.

I'm not saying that your surprise penis scenario is acceptable. I'm saying it is not an aggressive, violent crime which leaves scars that last a lifetime. That is why your comparison is silly, and that is why your intransigence defending it is mystifying.

You can have the last word in the matter. I'm done discussing this, and probably any other topic, with you.

[Regina]

I don't want to point this post at anyone in particular, but I do think part of the problem here is that there's a fear men will be labelled "gay" if they are attracted to transwomen.

Lots of men find transwomen attractive, because they are attracted to females and female characteristics in general. Same with gay men regarding trans men, I do find transgender men attractive. I've never come across a gay man who would be sexually attracted to a transwoman though, even if she still had a penis, let's just be real. I don't think genitalia is enough alone to matter, you need to look at the whole individual.

By this logic, if you as a "straight-identified" man had a relationship with a transman who was born female, would that be a "straight" relationship? No it wouldn't.

[SteelCurtain]

YL, I think that is the heart of it.

Without knowing the two transgender folks that I know, I would never have even given this whole situation much thought. As it is, I had to ask myself all these questions, framed by what I've learned about them. If I found a transgender woman attractive, how would I respond to that? Could I have a relationship with that woman that I was attracted to? I still don't know what a reconstructed vagina would look or feel like, but could have a fulfilling relationship with that person?

I think the answer to both would have to be yes, if I were being honest. As I grow older, the sexual component of relationships is lower on the hierarchy---it is still wildly important, but personality, intellect, openness, safety---these are all components that are more important to me. So if I felt all of the above with a transgender woman, and we had been dating and she revealed to me that she was in the process of transitioning---or not---I would consider it.

Without these people in my life, without their effect on both my knowledge and empathy about this whole topic, I don't think I'd ever have moved past the "eww gross no" stage.

[I_am_not_mafia]

We've addressed this already. It has nothing to do with interests, stereotypes, sexism or what society perceives to be male or female. This is rooted in brain structure and chemistry.

Okay, let's get scientific.  What about a transgender's brain structure or chemistry make her a woman?  And what would you say about an actual woman who does not have that specific brain structure or chemistry?

http://aebrain.blogspot.de/p/transsexual...ntity.html
http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn20...X8u5pTNEWO
http://www.thethinkingatheist.com/forum/...#pid684850

[I_am_not_mafia]

Transgendered people can be shown to have the same brains as the gender that they claim to be. It's been known for a long time but now we don't have to dissect the brains of trans people, we can scan them while they're still alive, even before they start taking hormones.

So this means that someone born with a vagina, but whose brain does not have this "female" structure, isn't really a woman?  It seems to me that by defining gender as something different than sex, you are invalidating the identity of at least some women.

You mean like a transgendered female to male?