What is the best theory for what intelligence is?

[Joods]

DFM,

There's so much to unpack here that I struggle with where to begin.

I will immediately agree that attempts at quantifying intelligence (IQ tests) are mostly bullshit; a fact that has been long understood. I encourage you to read Stephen Jay Gould's The Mismeasure of Man. Even if we were to take IQ at face value, there is little practicality. I would not have asked Einstein to fix my car, nor would I ask my mechanic to help me solve a physics problem. The issue with IQ is what if Einstein was actually an excellent mechanic or that my regular mechanic had a passion for physics? Each would outclass each other in their discipline, but it does not necessarily inhibit either from being valuable otherwise.

Some of what follows in your post reminds me of when my son tried to extole the superiority of blue collar vs. white collar over a decade ago when I lit into his ass because he was blowing off homework for the sake of some immediate gratification. Don't get me wrong, I would still rather spend time in a batting cage or play my bass than work everyday, but only a few are capable of making a living that way. 

I don't get why you call former peers in advanced classes stupid and immature. Leveraging my experience with my son you come across as someone that simply doesn't want to put in the work and are using the idea of IQ to deflect accountability. How are you defining 'high echelons of society'? Unless things have drastically changed in 30 years, being in advanced classes punched your ticket into a class that didn't participate in high school high echelons of society. 

However you define high echelons of society and seemingly have always known what is required to get there, the only person you should be consulting regarding your frustration is in the mirror. Let's be honest though, most people that pursue intellectual occupations don't often make a shitload of money (again having to assume what you mean by high echelons of society). 

You started off with a meaningful quandary regarding IQ, only to taint it with what comes across as a lazy person's sense of entitlement. Everyone is born with natural limitations regarding the upper boundary on his/her physical or cognitive capability; that's a simple fact of life, but there's a lot of room to play before ever coming close to the boundary. Another fact is that much can be overcome and achieved through a passionate force of will manifesting itself in effort to achieve what you want. 

The lack of personal accountability that comes with your charge that others are where they are simply because of advantage betrays you. Others may have what you call advantages, but that's life. It's your responsibility to play the hand you're dealt by doing your proverbial homework.

Let me stop you where I bolded you. What you wrote here is a misinterpretation. I wasn't saying that the kids in advanced classes were stupid and immature. I was saying that I wished I could be in the advanced classes, where all the kids seemed cooler and more interesting, not the obnoxious swaggernauts who seem like boring unintelligent people in the regular classes. I always felt really out of place in those classes, I wished that I was around the kids in the advanced classes, because I felt like that would be a much better environment for me.

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Look at that. That post got 6 fucking kudos in spite of being a complete misinterpretation. Fuck this world.

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While you didn't call kids in advanced classes stupid and immature, you DID say "I always despised my stupid immature peers when I was in high school." And yes, you did also state that you wished you were in advanced classes. So you get two points for that. However, being in advanced/accelerated classes comes with its own headaches. The work is substantially harder and those students are held to a much higher standard because of being in those classes. If you admit that you used to stuff assignments in the bottom of your bag and you rarely started them, then do you think you would have started those assignments had you been in advanced classes? Was it hard for you to get and stay organized in school? Many times if a student doesn't have the proper tools to keep papers organized, they find it hard to even want to do the work because half the time they can't find those papers so that they CAN do the work. 

Frustration can come very easy to a kid who doesn't have the necessary supplies they need in order to get their schoolwork done.

[drfuzzy]

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DFM,

There's so much to unpack here that I struggle with where to begin.

I will immediately agree that attempts at quantifying intelligence (IQ tests) are mostly bullshit; a fact that has been long understood. I encourage you to read Stephen Jay Gould's The Mismeasure of Man. Even if we were to take IQ at face value, there is little practicality. I would not have asked Einstein to fix my car, nor would I ask my mechanic to help me solve a physics problem. The issue with IQ is what if Einstein was actually an excellent mechanic or that my regular mechanic had a passion for physics? Each would outclass each other in their discipline, but it does not necessarily inhibit either from being valuable otherwise.

Some of what follows in your post reminds me of when my son tried to extole the superiority of blue collar vs. white collar over a decade ago when I lit into his ass because he was blowing off homework for the sake of some immediate gratification. Don't get me wrong, I would still rather spend time in a batting cage or play my bass than work everyday, but only a few are capable of making a living that way. 

I don't get why you call former peers in advanced classes stupid and immature. Leveraging my experience with my son you come across as someone that simply doesn't want to put in the work and are using the idea of IQ to deflect accountability. How are you defining 'high echelons of society'? Unless things have drastically changed in 30 years, being in advanced classes punched your ticket into a class that didn't participate in high school high echelons of society. 

However you define high echelons of society and seemingly have always known what is required to get there, the only person you should be consulting regarding your frustration is in the mirror. Let's be honest though, most people that pursue intellectual occupations don't often make a shitload of money (again having to assume what you mean by high echelons of society). 

You started off with a meaningful quandary regarding IQ, only to taint it with what comes across as a lazy person's sense of entitlement. Everyone is born with natural limitations regarding the upper boundary on his/her physical or cognitive capability; that's a simple fact of life, but there's a lot of room to play before ever coming close to the boundary. Another fact is that much can be overcome and achieved through a passionate force of will manifesting itself in effort to achieve what you want. 

The lack of personal accountability that comes with your charge that others are where they are simply because of advantage betrays you. Others may have what you call advantages, but that's life. It's your responsibility to play the hand you're dealt by doing your proverbial homework.

Let me stop you where I bolded you. What you wrote here is a misinterpretation. I wasn't saying that the kids in advanced classes were stupid and immature. I was saying that I wished I could be in the advanced classes, where all the kids seemed cooler and more interesting, not the obnoxious swaggernauts who seem like boring unintelligent people in the regular classes. I always felt really out of place in those classes, I wished that I was around the kids in the advanced classes, because I felt like that would be a much better environment for me. 

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[Minimalist]

What is the best theory for what intelligence is?

It is in short supply.

[ApeNotKillApe]

I did very poorly in secondary school, I skipped the vast majority of my classes, I rarely did any assignments, and like you I took papers given to me and crammed them into my pocket or my backpack and forgot about them. I always felt immensely frustrated by my peers, I couldn't connect with them, it was nothing but gossip and loud stupidity and terrible taste in music, it was tedious and frustrating and left me feeling isolated; I became very bitter and resentful, I became unpleasant to be around, and as a result, I was more isolated. I have come to understand in the years since that my problems in school (and the depression that I still deal with) were the result of a dysfunctional household, my higher-than-average intelligence and unbalanced brain chemistry, none of which can be overcome by continuing to simmer in insecurities and pushing anger onto people that might not deserve it, rather than trying to figure out where that frustration is coming from. Resentment only makes you feel worse, it's an endless cycle where your self-pity justifies your self-pity.

[DespondentFishdeathMasochismo]

I did very poorly in secondary school, I skipped the vast majority of my classes, I rarely did any assignments, and like you I took papers given to me and crammed them into my pocket or my backpack and forgot about them. I always felt immensely frustrated by my peers, I couldn't connect with them, it was nothing but gossip and loud stupidity and terrible taste in music, it was tedious and frustrating and left me feeling isolated; I became very bitter and resentful, I became unpleasant to be around, and as a result, I was more isolated. I have come to understand in the years since that my problems in school (and the depression that I still deal with) were the result of a dysfunctional household, my higher-than-average intelligence and unbalanced brain chemistry, none of which can be overcome by continuing to simmer in insecurities and pushing anger onto people that might not deserve it, rather than trying to figure out where that frustration is coming from. Resentment only makes you feel worse, it's an endless cycle where your self-pity justifies your self-pity.

Relevance of this?

[The Grand Nudger]

Kid pumps out referenced paperwork by weight while mommy bends the ear of the medical magnet to which her son is zoned.  This is how advanced placement actually happens, it has nothing to do with IQ, let alone intelligence. Im sure you were plenty cool back in the day, fuck those Magnent/CAST/MEGSSS/Gifted kids, complete douchenozzles.

[DespondentFishdeathMasochismo]

Kid pumps out referenced paperwork by weight while mommy bends the ear of the medical magnet to which her son is zoned.  This is how advanced placement actually happens, it has nothing to do with IQ, let alone intelligence.  Im sure you were plenty cool back in the day, fuck those Magnent/CAST/MEGSSS/Gifted kids, complete douchenozzles.

I always wish they could at least name it something different. "Gifted and talented" really? So I guess it's the gifted and talented class. Not the gifted and talented at pumping out assignments class. It seems like it's a misleading title for a class.

[The Grand Nudger]

I'm sure you can appreciate why they exist though, they separate kids willing to put pencil to paper - who have their parents efforts and energies behind them, into a distinguishable pool of candidates for college entrance.  Those two things will go farther in our education system than "smarts" ever will. Dollars spent yield tangible results. Whereas you can dump money on a brilliant but unmotivated student whose parents really couldn't give less of a fuck to absolutely no avail.

[DespondentFishdeathMasochismo]

I'm sure you can appreciate why they exist though, they separate kids willing to put pencil to paper - who have their parents efforts and energies behind them, into a distinguishable pool of candidates for college entrance.  Those two things will go farther in our education system than "smarts" ever will.  Dollars spent yield tangible results.  Whereas you can dump money on a brilliant but unmotivated student whose parents really couldn't give less of a fuck to absolutely no avail.

Well, I don't really like the last part of what you wrote, because it doesn't seem very insightful about why people may or may not do school work. I do believe that there are cases where students are driven to work harder, which I guess is why there's such a high education score for Japan. (I know there's also a high rate of suicide in that country too.)

[The Grand Nudger]

I'd consider that a seperate issue:  why we (as a whole) under-perform compared to Japan(as a whole) sepeaate from statistical outliers (like kids who would get into advanced placement).  

That's actually a far more interesting subject, imo...and filled with doom and gloom.  Consider, however, that the US has already seen this play out, and that's why an AA is worthless. Some Students™are driven to succeed today in ways that american students were once driven to succeed. The end result, though, will likely be the same, with the lower portion of -any- academic demographic managing the Taco Bells of Japan (for example), dis-incentivizing all but the most stellar performers. There are alot of Taco Bells, and only one LHC, though...so it's a wash in the wide view eh?