Being a sinner just for being born

[Ignorant]

Sure. It's a list of actions that someone comes up with, which are meant to represent things God doesn't want you to do. If you do one of them, you "sin". So you've broken those rules, nothing more.

Ah I see. If that is what you mean by the word sin, then NO, I do not believe sin is a real thing.

Instead, sin, like the word "evil", is not a "positive" reality. Those words are short-hand for the lacking of the "positive" reality. 

Evil is more general, and is short-hand for a lack or goodness/truth/being in general.

Sin is short-hand for the lack of the goodness/truth/being corresponding to human action (by which I mean free/voluntary action). More properly, and more colloquially, it only applies to those human actions which lack the sufficient goodness to fulfill your own human life (which would include the social dimension of human reality). Sinful actions, in other words, would be those actions which are incapable of bringing about a fulfilled human life, and the sinfulness of the action is determined by a synthesis of the relative objective reality and circumstantial subjective judgment.

One of our revered saints (Irenaeus) from the 2nd century once said that, "The glory of God is man fully alive." You might say (at least I do) that sin, in god's eyes, is our wasting of the potential of our humanity.

[robvalue]

Okay, thanks.

These all sound like very subjective terms though. Who gets to say what is and isn't a fulfilled life?

And who is making the subjective judgement you speak of?

It sounds like just another way of rating actions. What does it matter?

[Ignorant]

Okay, thanks.

These all sound like very subjective terms though. Who gets to say what is and isn't a fulfilled life? [1]

And who is making the subjective judgement you speak of? [2]

It sounds like just another way of rating actions. What does it matter? [3]

1) This is THE excellent question. Every person's life, even if not explicitly, is a search for an answer to THAT question. =) Ultimately, every individual MUST be the one to determine what they think will bring them fulfillment, and then determine the most fulfilling ways to seek it out. No one does that in a vacuum. We are all trying to get to this together.

2) Any acting human being (i.e. any freely/voluntarily acting human being).

3) It matters to me because I think that your happiness and my happiness (i.e. everyone's happiness) are related and dependent on each other. I think the more fully alive I am, the more fully alive you may be, and vice-versa. Just reading these forums for the past few months is a testament to that communal fulfillment, at least to me.

[SteveII]

I think the fallen state makes sinning highly probable. However, at the same time, I think that free will guarantees it (with or without sin nature).

Okay, but what about Christian doctrine?

It ranges from the fallen state being a slight defect all the way to complete and total sin infecting the whole person. I believe most people believe in the middle (like I do).

[robvalue]

Ignorant: Thank you for your answers

Of course, I care about the wellbeing of others. That is the basis for my morality. But I don't do it because of the consequences to me "if I sin". I do it because I want to. I could get away with doing lots of "sinful" stuff, but I don't.

What I don't understand is the need to introduce "sin" as a separate concept.

I'm still not quite understanding how it works. Are we judging each other's actions as being sinful or otherwise? So it's just another way of saying we think an action is immoral? Or extremely immoral? Is god's opinion of importance here, and if so, why?

[robvalue]

PS: I forgot to say that I attempt to extend my morality beyond humans to all animals, as far as practically possible. How exactly actions are rated when done to a non-human seems to be vastly a matter of opinion, even among people who mostly agree on human/human interactions.

[Ignorant]

Ignorant: Thank you for your answers

Of course, I care about the wellbeing of others. That is the basis for my morality. But I don't do it because of the consequences to me "if I sin". I do it because I want to. [1] I could get away with doing lots of "sinful" stuff, but I don't. [2]

What I don't understand is the need to introduce "sin" as a separate concept. [3]

I'm still not quite understanding how it works. Are we judging each other's actions as being sinful or otherwise? [4] So it's just another way of saying we think an action is immoral?  Or extremely immoral? [5] Is god's opinion of importance here, and if so, why? [6]

1) GOOD! Any Christian who reads the New Testament would do well if they did the same. 

2) GOOD!

3) Well, I think you would agree that many people WANT to do things differently. Many people act without reference to the well-being of others. Many people act in direct contradiction to the well-being of others. Some people even act in direct contradiction to their own well-being. How would you describe those realities?

4) Well, hopefully we don't have the habit of constantly judging other's actions. We do, however, judge people's actions all of the time and rightly so. Depending on our relationship with those people, out of love for them and their well-being, we may have the opportunity to talk about their actions, and invite them to better future ones.

5) Well yes, but that might be an oversimplification given the wider culture's understanding of the terms moral/immoral. But yes, "sin" is the Christian tradition's way of describing poor human action, human action that either seeks unfulfilling things, or seeks things in unfulfilling ways, or seeks things for unfulfilling reasons, or combinations of all of them. Fulfillment is also spectral. Things are not either fulfilling or not. Rather, they are more or less fulfilling, and those things which do not sufficiently fulfill, are sinful.

6) Clearly, from a theist perspective (at least mine), God's 'opinion' is important because that 'opinion' (which isn't the best word here) is what made humanity the thing it is. If fulfillment lies in people living out their humanity to the fullest, then that is dependent on what humanity is in the first place (which is determined by God's 'opinion')

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PS: I forgot to say that I attempt to extend my morality beyond humans to all animals, as far as practically possible. How exactly actions are rated when done to a non-human seems to be vastly a matter of opinion, even among people who mostly agree on human/human interactions.

Very important aspect! This is something we as Christians have been very poor on in the past few centuries. The way we interact with animals most certainly carries a moral dimension. How we act in regards to animals DOES affect our own fulfillment!

[SteveII]

Okay, do you think sin is a real thing?

I think it isn't, it's a man-made concept. It's often fallaciously equivocated as being both immoral (harmful to people) and something God doesn't approve of.

It seems to me that if sin is "real", then it's all in the mind of God. He's keeping tally. I don't see how it can be any other way. Why he would feel the need to keep tally, I don't know. How anything could upset him, I don't know.

I suppose people could think it's an actual thing that permeates our bodies. I think I've heard someone say that before. But there's no evidence of course for this. Even if this is the case, God has presumably designed things this way.

Mainstream protestant perspective is that there are two types of sin: 1)acts of commission--a transgression (positive) against God's moral law and 2) acts of omission--failing to do something that you should have done.

Acts of commission can be summed up in just 2 categories. Pride and concupiscence (grasping, coveting, craving). We have the 10 commandments (the law) as a start. 

Acts of omission include failure to do something when you should have (like stop a harm or injustice when you had the power to do so) and unbelief. 

Jesus summed it all up as "Love the Lord with all your heart, mind and soul and your neighbor as yourself". 

There is no need for God to keep a tally (none whatsoever) because all it takes is one sin.

[robvalue]

Ok thanks ignorant I can sort of see where you're coming from.

What happens if I sin then? Surely I have sinned at points in my life, according to most people. I apologize to wronged parties for my mistakes and I try to learn from them. In other words, I try to make ammends. But I don't feel I owe anything to any sort of deity, nor do I enter into any bargain with them.

What shall become of me?

Thank you for your very thorough and thoughtful answers. I'm glad you agree about animals!

Steve: It only takes one sin for what? And apparently I already have it (original sin), so what's my incentive not to do more?

I certainly don't love God, because I don't even know what it is, nor have I ever met it. I have no feelings about it.

[GrandizerII]

Misread.