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RE: Question For Fellow Atheists...
January 17, 2017 at 11:28 pm
(This post was last modified: January 17, 2017 at 11:30 pm by robvalue.)
(January 17, 2017 at 7:36 pm)Cephus Wrote: (January 17, 2017 at 4:15 pm)Autolite Wrote: Is it just me? Am I the only one who is bothered this much by this? About the only way that I can deal with it is knowing that there is absolutely nothing that I can do about it... ![Sad Sad](https://atheistforums.org/images/smilies/sad.gif)
When I find out someone has an imaginary friend as an adult, my level of respect for them goes right out the window. They might be perfectly nice people, but my level of respect for them as intellectual beings pretty much goes to zero, at least with regards to their religious beliefs.
Rational people, in the act of being rational people, are not religious, period.
Bold mine.
That is the crux of the matter. We're discussing whether someone can have otherwise respectable beliefs, as well as religious beliefs. I think it's very clear that they can. I will take whatever other things they have to say into consideration with an open mind, if they can do so without bringing their religion into it. If they insist on bringing it into everything, then yeah, intellectual conversation is pretty much a non-starter.
If someone wants to write off a religious person entirely without hearing anything else they have to say, that is up to them, but I think it's a mistake.
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RE: Question For Fellow Atheists...
January 18, 2017 at 4:39 am
(This post was last modified: January 18, 2017 at 4:40 am by ignoramus.)
What! You don't prefer Strawberry flavoured Icecream over Chocolate? Fuck you man! Fuck you forever! You sick dememted fucker!
No God, No fear.
Know God, Know fear.
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RE: Question For Fellow Atheists...
January 18, 2017 at 4:43 am
(January 7, 2017 at 4:35 pm)Autolite Wrote: This is my first visit to your forum. I have been a full-hard-right Atheist for at least twenty five years but I would like to ask a question that I think only another Atheist might be able to help me with.
I've spent several years discussing religion both on and offline but I think I have reached a point of 'Atheist burn-out'. I don't think it would be a surprise to any Atheist here that such discussions rarely actually accomplish any tangible results reference changing the mind of a Theist and far more often than not usually only end up in generating a considerable amount of animosity between both parties.
I would like to know how you other Atheists deal with and view Theists?
It seems to bother me more and more that there are so many people who continue to buy into the B.S. that is Theism. I recently watched the 'Jesus Camp' documentary and found it unsettling and even a little depressing. How do you fellow Atheists reconcile the fact that most of the people that you know are basically mentally 'screwed-up'.
A few weeks ago a christian neighbour of mine made a religious comment so profoundly absurd and ridiculous that it almost sent me into shock. How do you cope knowing that many so people are this messed up? I sometimes feel like I'm trapped in some sort of surreal 'Twilight Zone' type of parallel universe that is controlled and run by total nut-cases... ![Sad Sad](https://atheistforums.org/images/smilies/sad.gif) Welcome.
It's come to the point where my entire attitude toward theists is a sort of heavy sigh and slight shaking of the head. I make an honest attempt to treat almost everyone I interact with with respect, to an extent. Sometimes I call people on their bullshit, but it doesn't mean I don't respect them as a person. And just because I respect a person doesn't mean I have to respect their silly beliefs about fairy tales and imaginary friends.
I mostly avoid the topic of religion/god when I'm talking with theists in real life. Unless it is a mature person who is open and willing to having an honest, friendly conversation on the topic, I usually keep my mouth shut. It's sort of the same here on the forum. Sometimes I'll make an honest attempt to persuade a theist into at least considering my point of view, and then I realize it's like talking to a wall and I give up.
When religious folks make comments to me concerning Jesus and that sort of stuff, I usually just respond by sort of saying, "Well okay then" and not much else. It's not worth the bullshit. Religion is slowly but surely leaving our world but it is definitely going to take some time. Most of my friends are at least agnostic deists or agnostic atheists. I have a few theist friends and we have discussed the subject at length but they always just end up referring to the bible as "proof" of their god. I think it's silly.
I'm sort of burnt out on the debating part of it, though sometimes I'll still come on here and spark a fire or two for fun. At the end of the day, most people, including myself, are going to believe what they want to believe about things (it's just that the more sensible among us are willing to change those beliefs if faced with cold, hard facts) so the efforts to argue with Christians, Muslims, or whoever, are mostly futile.
“Love is the only bow on Life’s dark cloud. It is the morning and the evening star. It shines upon the babe, and sheds its radiance on the quiet tomb. It is the mother of art, inspirer of poet, patriot and philosopher.
It is the air and light of every heart – builder of every home, kindler of every fire on every hearth. It was the first to dream of immortality. It fills the world with melody – for music is the voice of love.
Love is the magician, the enchanter, that changes worthless things to Joy, and makes royal kings and queens of common clay. It is the perfume of that wondrous flower, the heart, and without that sacred passion, that divine swoon, we are less than beasts; but with it, earth is heaven, and we are gods.” - Robert. G. Ingersoll
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RE: Question For Fellow Atheists...
January 18, 2017 at 7:16 am
(This post was last modified: January 18, 2017 at 7:24 am by Autolite.)
Quote:I'm sort of burnt out on the debating part of it, though sometimes I'll still come on here and spark a fire or two for fun. At the end of the day, most people, including myself, are going to believe what they want to believe about things (it's just that the more sensible among us are willing to change those beliefs if faced with cold, hard facts) so the efforts to argue with Christians, Muslims, or whoever, are mostly futile.
I think that we're both on the same page on this. It's has taken me a very long time but I now realise that people are going to believe what they choose to believe regardless of things like truth, facts or reality. It's a sobering and unsettling realization, well for me it is anyway. I just don't know where people like Dawkins, Carrier, Krauss or Maher get the fortitude to carry on the fight.
robvalue made a comment that made me think. He said that using rationality and logic is the way to defeat or counter Theism. I figure that Atheism has been around just as long as Theism. I wonder at what point in the history of mankind does he reckon that rationality will start to kick in and do it's thing???
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RE: Question For Fellow Atheists...
January 18, 2017 at 8:08 am
(This post was last modified: January 18, 2017 at 8:10 am by robvalue.)
It's doing it right now. Atheism is on the rise.
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RE: Question For Fellow Atheists...
January 18, 2017 at 8:11 am
(January 18, 2017 at 7:16 am)Autolite Wrote: I think that we're both on the same page on this. It's has taken me a very long time but I now realise that people are going to believe what they choose to believe regardless of things like truth, facts or reality. It's a sobering and unsettling realization, well for me it is anyway. I just don't know where people like Dawkins, Carrier, Krauss or Maher get the fortitude to carry on the fight.
robvalue made a comment that made me think. He said that using rationality and logic is the way to defeat or counter Theism. I figure that Atheism has been around just as long as Theism. I wonder at what point in the history of mankind does he reckon that rationality will start to kick in and do it's thing???
I think with time and repetition logic and reason will win out over dogma and faith. But I suppose we won't know. I think we are certainly starting to see the beginning of a godless world - and Christians especially are scared to death by it. There is always going to be overlap generation after generation... just to quantify it if 10 million people per generation start to learn how to think with logic rather than faith (whether or not they come to the conclusion that they are atheists) then that is a step in the right direction.
I have a five year old niece and while I would never attempt to persuade her into being an atheist, I certainly would be honest with her that I do not think there is a god. I would simply tell her what I think and then ask her what makes the most sense to her. I think a lot more children are being raised this way in today's age and slowly, but surely, the kids who are religious are starting to be seen as "the weird kid." I can remember even 6 years ago when I was in high school... no one was religious. Sure some people would tell you they were Christian or Catholic or whatever but no one really followed any of it. The kids who did were sort of seen as jesus freaks and whatnot.
I'm not condoning that religious kids be bullied or anything like that but what I am saying is that even children are smart enough to figure out that it's a very bizarre thing to follow fairy tales and made up stories with such zeal and passion. It is a strange thing and people are starting to catch on to that.
“Love is the only bow on Life’s dark cloud. It is the morning and the evening star. It shines upon the babe, and sheds its radiance on the quiet tomb. It is the mother of art, inspirer of poet, patriot and philosopher.
It is the air and light of every heart – builder of every home, kindler of every fire on every hearth. It was the first to dream of immortality. It fills the world with melody – for music is the voice of love.
Love is the magician, the enchanter, that changes worthless things to Joy, and makes royal kings and queens of common clay. It is the perfume of that wondrous flower, the heart, and without that sacred passion, that divine swoon, we are less than beasts; but with it, earth is heaven, and we are gods.” - Robert. G. Ingersoll
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RE: Question For Fellow Atheists...
January 18, 2017 at 8:14 am
(This post was last modified: January 18, 2017 at 8:29 am by robvalue.)
I see no alternative. It's the best method available, and it is working. Of course religion isn't going to die overnight. The better educated people are, the better placed they are to make good decisions.
Overly shunning theists is only going to cause more rifts and polarization. There's no obligation to talk to them more than necessary if they bother you, and certainly no duty to listen to or debate their theistic ideas. But surely we can all at least be civil.
Personally, I think it's a matter of judgement. Is a theist talking to me because they are honestly open to discussion and new ideas, or are they just preaching?
I've changed the minds of several people on several issues in my life, and every time it has been by being polite, answering questions honestly and then letting people come to me if they want to discuss things further.
On the other hand, I've shut down many conversations because I think the other person is being rude, is too emotional, has no interest in examining their beliefs or is just badgering me.
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RE: Question For Fellow Atheists...
January 18, 2017 at 10:46 am
(January 18, 2017 at 8:08 am)robvalue Wrote: It's doing it right now. Atheism is on the rise.
But is it rising faster than Islam???
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RE: Question For Fellow Atheists...
January 18, 2017 at 11:10 am
(This post was last modified: January 18, 2017 at 11:12 am by Brian37.)
(January 17, 2017 at 11:28 pm)robvalue Wrote: (January 17, 2017 at 7:36 pm)Cephus Wrote: When I find out someone has an imaginary friend as an adult, my level of respect for them goes right out the window. They might be perfectly nice people, but my level of respect for them as intellectual beings pretty much goes to zero, at least with regards to their religious beliefs.
Rational people, in the act of being rational people, are not religious, period.
Bold mine.
That is the crux of the matter. We're discussing whether someone can have otherwise respectable beliefs, as well as religious beliefs. I think it's very clear that they can. I will take whatever other things they have to say into consideration with an open mind, if they can do so without bringing their religion into it. If they insist on bringing it into everything, then yeah, intellectual conversation is pretty much a non-starter.
If someone wants to write off a religious person entirely without hearing anything else they have to say, that is up to them, but I think it's a mistake.
It is perfectly fine to say that an atheist and theist can agree on economic issues, or like of a sports team or book or movie. But it still does not change that religions, worldwide even among the umbrella label seek to compete between the sub sects for the attention of the governments they live under. In that context it is impossible to separate belief from politics, even if some say they do try to do that.
I value the empathy of Martin Luther King Jr, but that does not prove the Christian god the one true god. I can value the likes of Ann Frank, but again, that does not prove Yahweh as the one real god. I can value the likes of Malala but again, that does not prove Allah to be the one real god.
There ARE very compassionate individuals worldwide in every nation who hold various religious labels. The only thing I dispute isn't my fellow human's capability of being compassionate. I merely dispute where anyone of any label of any religion thinks that empathy is coming from. I would argue that humans need to consider that our ability to be cruel or compassionate is not coming from above from a divine source vs a ground troll. I would argue that our morality isn't coming from a book or a patent held by a holy gatekeeper.
I would argue it is coming from the same evolution, we can see when an elephant mourns their dead or protects their young. Why we even have a video of a cat, protecting a kid from a dog attacking it.
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RE: Question For Fellow Atheists...
January 18, 2017 at 11:34 am
(This post was last modified: January 18, 2017 at 11:35 am by robvalue.)
(January 18, 2017 at 10:46 am)Autolite Wrote: (January 18, 2017 at 8:08 am)robvalue Wrote: It's doing it right now. Atheism is on the rise.
But is it rising faster than Islam???
Offhand, I don't know. If it wasn't, then... what? Give up?
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