Lately stuck on WW2 history.

[Gawdzilla Sama]

Gentlebeings, you might find this a bit of fun: http://ibiblio.org/hyperwar/NHC/NewPDFs/...cognition/

[Brian37]

This hour just played the colorized clip as the Youtube clip of the Saipan suicides I posted earlier.

[DeistPaladin]

In the other theater, I've sometimes wondered about the policy of "appeasement" and what really motivated it. The narrative of history is that Chamberlain was just being weak willed but it strikes me as odd because, in a democratic system, one doesn't rise to the highest office by being in the habit of giving things away to one's enemies. 

I wonder if the failed and tragic strategy was more of a "Frankenstein's monster". There was a red scare in Britain and France at that time and the Soviet Union had been very aggressive in invading its neighbors, including a failed attempt to invade Poland. I speculate that Chamberlain mistakenly thought that the Fascists, being at the opposite end of the political extreme from Communism, would be a bulwark against the Soviet Union. I think it's fair to say that nobody saw the Nazi-Soviet non-aggression pact coming. 

The lesson is that my enemy's enemy is not necessarily my friend.

[Brian37]

A question of anyone reading this. Does anyone think, that if Hitler had not been such a greedy narcissist, and not conducted Barbarossa and simply stopped at taking over Europe would the world look different today?

[Anomalocaris]

Of course the would would be different. But it seems certain however the future turns out, Nazi Germans will not likely survive. The war between Germany of Russia was pretty much inevitable.   The longer Germany wait to invade the USSR, the weaker Germany forces involved in the invasion would be relative to soviet defending forces.

[DeistPaladin]

A question of anyone reading this. Does anyone think, that if Hitler had not been such a greedy narcissist, and not conducted Barbarossa and simply stopped at taking over Europe would the world look different today?

I shudder to think of the world we would be living in now if Hitler hadn't attacked Russia. What a nightmare scenario. 

I think he must have been assuming that it would go like their last war with Russia. In WWI, Germany, while fighting Italy, France, Britain and America, managed to bring Russia to her knees. When Hitler decided to attack Russia, France was out, Italy was an ally and America was neutral. You can see how it might have seemed like a good idea to someone like him. 

The lesson here is every war is different. 

Another thing that might have changed history is if Japan had attacked Russia instead of America. They could have bombed the railway connecting east from west, splitting Russia in two and preventing Stalin from reinforcing his western front.

[Brian37]

The war between Germany of Russia was pretty much inevitable.   The longer Germany wait to invade the USSR, the weaker Germany forces involved in the invasion would be relative to soviet defending forces.

Not the point.

The more I look at the over all tactic of Hitler's Nazis, the fatal flaw in his tactic is that he more often than not thought that by expanding, you could simply take over the defeated's resources. I think the main reason Barbarossa failed, was because once he invaded, he didn't have enough supplies or time to utilize the captured territory's resources. 

The real reason for war are strategic control over resources. If you don't have enough supplies and bad planning, you might have initial success, but wont have the time to take advantage of what you capture.

[DeistPaladin]

Another scenario I've thought of is what if the Germans had enlisted the help of all the people Stalin had invaded and oppressed: Ukraine and the Baltic States in particular? The deal would be help us beat the Russians and you can have your independence. Of course, the whole being Nazis part precludes making such a deal.

[Brian37]

Another scenario I've thought of is what if the Germans had enlisted the help of all the people Stalin had invaded and oppressed: Ukraine and the Baltic States in particular? The deal would be help us beat the Russians and you can have your independence. Of course, the whole being Nazis part precludes making such a deal.

Ironic, but not everyone in the eastern states or even in Russia were against the Germans. Many saw them as liberators. It has to be said, Stalin had his own haters living under him as well. Basically you had two dictators selling ideology, and racism.

[Gawdzilla Sama]

This hour just played the colorized clip as the Youtube clip of the Saipan suicides I posted earlier.

A lot of the civilians jumped because the IJA was behind them with bayonets.

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Another scenario I've thought of is what if the Germans had enlisted the help of all the people Stalin had invaded and oppressed: Ukraine and the Baltic States in particular? The deal would be help us beat the Russians and you can have your independence. Of course, the whole being Nazis part precludes making such a deal.

Ironic, but not everyone in the eastern states or even in Russia were against the Germans. Many saw them as liberators. It has to be said, Stalin had his own haters living under him as well. Basically you had two dictators selling ideology, and racism.

IIRC the head of the Zaparosti (sp?) Cossacks spent the war in Berlin, as the Mufti of Jerusalem.