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RE: The Death Penalty - are you for or against it and why?
June 17, 2011 at 4:26 pm
(June 17, 2011 at 2:19 pm)Napoleon Wrote: Lets just leave that serial killer locked away in his cell for the rest of his pointless existence so that he can consume food which could be going to starving children then eh? 
Lol I know that. I was just having a little fun with him.
Let's extend this fun argument, then...
We could save a lot more food and oxygen by immediately killing all the murderers, rapists, petty criminals, political dissidents, unproductive citizens ...
Having fun yet?
The point is not that it's onerous to imprison the bad, or even what they deserve; it's what we deserve as a society. Clarke had an intriguing phrase, "Crime was a luxury Mercury could not afford." We can afford to not kill our enemies.
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RE: The Death Penalty - are you for or against it and why?
June 17, 2011 at 4:40 pm
(June 17, 2011 at 4:26 pm)martin02 Wrote: (June 17, 2011 at 2:19 pm)Napoleon Wrote: Lets just leave that serial killer locked away in his cell for the rest of his pointless existence so that he can consume food which could be going to starving children then eh?
Lol I know that. I was just having a little fun with him.
Let's extend this fun argument, then...
We could save a lot more food and oxygen by immediately killing all the murderers, rapists, petty criminals, political dissidents, unproductive citizens ...
Having fun yet?
I know that I am! ^_^
Quote:The point is not that it's onerous to imprison the bad, or even what they deserve; it's what we deserve as a society. Clarke had an intriguing phrase, "Crime was a luxury Mercury could not afford." We can afford to not kill our enemies.
Sure. But it is so much simpler a thing to do. Keeping them alive is a multistep process. Killing them is really easy.
Please give me a home where cloud buffalo roam
Where the dear and the strangers can play
Where sometimes is heard a discouraging word
But the skies are not stormy all day
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RE: The Death Penalty - are you for or against it and why?
June 17, 2011 at 4:44 pm
(June 17, 2011 at 4:26 pm)martin02 Wrote: Let's extend this fun argument, then...
We could save a lot more food and oxygen by immediately killing all the murderers, rapists, petty criminals, political dissidents, unproductive citizens ...
Having fun yet?
The point is not that it's onerous to imprison the bad, or even what they deserve; it's what we deserve as a society. Clarke had an intriguing phrase, "Crime was a luxury Mercury could not afford." We can afford to not kill our enemies.
I'd personally only have the death sentence for those who have done the most 'terrible crimes' and that are going to be in prison for life anyway.
I also don't think society should be paying for people who clearly don't want to be a part of such a society.
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RE: The Death Penalty - are you for or against it and why?
June 17, 2011 at 5:38 pm
(June 17, 2011 at 4:44 pm)Napoleon Wrote: (June 17, 2011 at 4:26 pm)martin02 Wrote: Let's extend this fun argument, then...
We could save a lot more food and oxygen by immediately killing all the murderers, rapists, petty criminals, political dissidents, unproductive citizens ...
Having fun yet?
The point is not that it's onerous to imprison the bad, or even what they deserve; it's what we deserve as a society. Clarke had an intriguing phrase, "Crime was a luxury Mercury could not afford." We can afford to not kill our enemies.
I'd personally only have the death sentence for those who have done the most 'terrible crimes' and that are going to be in prison for life anyway.
I also don't think society should be paying for people who clearly don't want to be a part of such a society.
Nap, I take it we're serious now?! I am against c.p. because it is inevitable that innocent people will be executed. Now, next problem, you want selectve c.p......how would you get agreement on what constitutes " terrible crimes "?
Next, I am not impressed at c.p. being a financial answer to such a big issue.
 A man is born to a virgin mother, lives, dies, comes alive again and then disappears into the clouds to become his Dad. How likely is that?
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RE: The Death Penalty - are you for or against it and why?
June 17, 2011 at 5:51 pm
(June 17, 2011 at 5:38 pm)bozo Wrote: Nap, I take it we're serious now?! I am against c.p. because it is inevitable that innocent people will be executed. Now, next problem, you want selectve c.p......how would you get agreement on what constitutes " terrible crimes "?
Next, I am not impressed at c.p. being a financial answer to such a big issue.
Innocent people are killed all the time, I'd only have the death penalty when there is conclusive proof that someone has commited the crime in question. Literally so that it is only used when there is no doubt someone has commited the crime.
Selective c.p agreement? You put up a proposal, let people vote and then a law is passed. That's how things are usually done in democracy.
I see no problem with eliminating waste. Which is what the death penalty would be used for. There are lifers in prison for heinous crimes, and frankly there is NO financial argument for tax payers to be paying to feed these twats.
This is all just my opinion, and I fully understand the other spectrum of the argument and where I think you're coming from. It doesn't bother me too much what the government decides to do either way, i'm just saying what I think.
I'm sure all of these people defending prisoners rights would change their minds if it was their families that were murdered.
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RE: The Death Penalty - are you for or against it and why?
June 17, 2011 at 5:56 pm
People who are against capital punishment usually cite the worry that an innocent (or themself) will be shafted and hence are against it.
People who are for usually cite resource concerns.
One focuses on preventing injustice or worries that statistically they'll be fucked over, the other just focuses on inhuman entities.
As always, this general model has limits.
I am against capital punishment on these grounds:
- the innocence problem
- the sheer body of laws in the states that ensures a large prison population; by that token, the chances of you getting incarcerated are much higher than it should be
- jingoistic shitwits who, seeing that prison costs a lot of $$$, will propose either early release (of violent felons -- drug users are mandatorily held, according to the above) which will raise the crime in a population and warrant the death penalty for a probabilistic number of the released, or propose extending the death penalty to encompass more.
You see, the act of killing a known criminal isn't a problem.
It's the capability for the state to do such brings me worry.
As is said, "Give a monkey a hammer, and everything looks like a nail, even screws."
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RE: The Death Penalty - are you for or against it and why?
June 17, 2011 at 6:35 pm
(June 17, 2011 at 5:51 pm)Napoleon Wrote: (June 17, 2011 at 5:38 pm)bozo Wrote: Nap, I take it we're serious now?! I am against c.p. because it is inevitable that innocent people will be executed. Now, next problem, you want selectve c.p......how would you get agreement on what constitutes " terrible crimes "?
Next, I am not impressed at c.p. being a financial answer to such a big issue.
Innocent people are killed all the time, I'd only have the death penalty when there is conclusive proof that someone has commited the crime in question. Literally so that it is only used when there is no doubt someone has commited the crime.
Selective c.p agreement? You put up a proposal, let people vote and then a law is passed. That's how things are usually done in democracy.
I see no problem with eliminating waste. Which is what the death penalty would be used for. There are lifers in prison for heinous crimes, and frankly there is NO financial argument for tax payers to be paying to feed these twats.
This is all just my opinion, and I fully understand the other spectrum of the argument and where I think you're coming from. It doesn't bother me too much what the government decides to do either way, i'm just saying what I think.
I'm sure all of these people defending prisoners rights would change their minds if it was their families that were murdered.
Nap, taking your points in order:-
Guilt can never be conclusive, otherwise miscarriages of justice would never happen....but they do.Innocent people still end up incarcerated or executed.
I maybe misunderstood your argument about " selectivism ". I thought you meant some crimes to be more deserving of the death penalty than others. I still think you mean that, if so, I repeat my question as to how do you select those crimes?
I reject your idea of killing for reasons of saving money.
I respect any opposite oppinion to mine on this subject.
I reject your final inferrence that everyone would seek revenge, for that is what it would be, in the dreadful scenario you put forward.
A man is born to a virgin mother, lives, dies, comes alive again and then disappears into the clouds to become his Dad. How likely is that?
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RE: The Death Penalty - are you for or against it and why?
June 17, 2011 at 7:17 pm
Fascists always like to think of others as "waste".
A society that throws away it's prisoners as "waste", that throws any group away as a form of "garbage", is no better than the fascist countries of old.
Be your garbage "undesirables", "lifers" or part of another ethnic group.
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RE: The Death Penalty - are you for or against it and why?
June 17, 2011 at 8:31 pm
Quote:Guilt can never be conclusive, otherwise miscarriages of justice would never happen....but they do.Innocent people still end up incarcerated or executed.
We have constructed an adversarial criminal justice system. It is about winning and losing far more than justice.
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RE: The Death Penalty - are you for or against it and why?
June 18, 2011 at 7:28 am
(June 17, 2011 at 8:31 pm)Minimalist Wrote: Quote:Guilt can never be conclusive, otherwise miscarriages of justice would never happen....but they do.Innocent people still end up incarcerated or executed.
We have constructed an adversarial criminal justice system. It is about winning and losing far more than justice.
It certainly is important to win if you've been wrongly charged with murder!
What those who favour c.p. have to answer is the question as to whether they think the deaths of innocent people at the hands of the executioner is " a price worth paying ".
A man is born to a virgin mother, lives, dies, comes alive again and then disappears into the clouds to become his Dad. How likely is that?
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