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Signature in the Cell: DNA as Evidence for Design, beside Nature's Laws/Fine-Tuning.
#1
Signature in the Cell: DNA as Evidence for Design, beside Nature's Laws/Fine-Tuning.
"Do you know the laws of the universe? Can you use them to regulate the earth?" (Job 38:33, circa 2000 B.C.)

"Men became Scientific because they expected Law in Nature, and they expected Law in Nature because they believed in a Legislator." ~ C.S. Lewis.

In the life of King Canute of Great (d. 1035), who was King of England/Denmark and Norway respectively, this incident is related, of how the King nearly drowned: "continuing to rise as usual [the tide] dashed over his feet and legs without respect to his royal person. Then the king leapt backwards, saying: 'Let all men know how empty and worthless is the power of kings, for there is none worthy of the name, but He whom Heaven, Earth, and Sea obey by eternal laws.'" He then hung his Gold Crown on a Crucifix, and never wore it again "to the honour of God the Almighty King".

1. The basic argument for design was developed long ago by Saint Thomas Aquinas. It is based on the simple observation that Nature follows or obeys what we now call Scientific Laws. But why should Nature be governed by such laws in the first place? Why do things not behave in a completely arbitrary and unpredictable manner, if supposedly there is no design, order and intelligence behind creation/Nature? We know that human creations, AI as well as programmed systems, can be ordered/required to behave in accordance with the laws of their programming externally imposed upon them from outside. It is reasonable to infer, then, that the very existence of such Scientific Laws supports Design.

Saint Thomas: "The fifth way is taken from the governance of the world. We see that things which lack intelligence, such as natural bodies, act for an end, and this is evident from their acting always, or nearly always, in the same way, so as to obtain the best result. Hence it is plain that not fortuitously, but designedly, do they achieve their end. Now whatever lacks intelligence cannot move towards an end, unless it be directed by some Being endowed with knowledge and intelligence; as the arrow is shot to its mark by the archer. Therefore some Intelligent Being exists by whom all natural things are directed to their end; and this Being we call God." (Summa Theologica)

2. This was long ago, of course, and empirical Scientific Discoveries like DNA and Fine Tuning have been made since then. Let's start with DNA.

About 15 years ago, Dr. Meyer wrote Signature in the Cell, arguing that DNA was evidence of Design. While Atheists of course criticized the book (no surprises there!), the American Spectator commented: "Signature in the Cell is a defining work in the discussion of life’s origins and the question of whether life is a product of unthinking matter or of an intelligent mind."

Meyer wrote: "As Richard Dawkins notes, “The machine code of the genes is uncannily computer-like.” Software developer Bill Gates goes further: “DNA is like a computer program but far, far more advanced than any software ever created [by man, that is - Xavier]." But if this is true, how did the information in DNA arise? Is this striking appearance of design the product of actual design or of a natural process that can mimic the powers of a designing intelligence? As it turns out, this question is related to a long-standing mystery in biology—the question of the origin of the first life. Indeed, since Watson and Crick’s discovery, scientists have increasingly come to understand the centrality of information to even the simplest living systems. DNA stores the assembly instructions for building the many crucial proteins and protein machines that service and maintain even the most primitive one-celled organisms. It follows that building a living cell in the first place requires assembly instructions stored in DNA or some equivalent molecule. As origin-of-life researcher Bernd-Olaf Küppers explains, “The problem of the origin of life is clearly basically equivalent to the problem of the origin of biological information.”

That the Genetic Code in DNA is Evidence of the Intelligent Design of human (and other living) beings can be shown by a simple syllogism:

1. Codes are always evidence of design.
2. The genetic code in DNA is a code.
3. Therefore, the genetic code in DNA is evidence of design.

The proof of premise 1 is very evident. If explorers on Mars found a highly developed code (or even a language, a basic form of transmitting information in an ordered way), on Mars or any other Planet that didn't come from human beings, they would obviously proclaim that they had found evidence if not proof of Alien Life. Next, British Cryptographers (or Code-Breakers) during World War II were able to detect Enemy Messages from the Nazis sent through the radio waves as apparently random signals. Once more, this shows Design Detection is really possible and is a scientific endeavor. Finally, if a murderer at a crime scene was foolish enough to leave codes or other information at the site of his crime, forensic investigators would logically conclude they had excluded the hypothesis of an accidental or natural death, knowing it was intentional.

What we apply to the scientific causes of death, it is unfortunate we do not reflect enough to apply to the Scientific Creation/Design of Life in the first place. If deaths can be known not to be merely Accidental, then a fortiori, so too the Cause of Life itself can be known to be Intentional.

As for premise 2, it is so universally accepted I don't think I need to establish it. Will give some arguments for it if someone contests it. 3 logically follows.

3. Even more recent of a Scientific Discovery, and perhaps most interesting of all, is what is now called Fine-Tuning. 

Physicist Paul Davies said: "There is now broad agreement among physicists and cosmologists that the Universe is in several respects ‘fine-tuned' for life"

The argument may be formulated like this:

1. On chance alone, he narrow range (given different configurations of physical constants) of life-permitting universes is vastly less probable than life-precluding ones.
2. But we are evidently in a life-permitting universe.
3. It is thus rational to infer that our existence is not owing to chance alone, but Design.

Now, for an analogy: let's say 100 different sharp-shooters were all aiming to shoot and kill you. There is a slight probability any one of them would miss, but it's almost virtually impossible for all of them to miss at the same time. Yet, if in fact you were not killed after they shot, you would logically conclude, this was not due to chance alone, but some designed intervention (e.g. they were secretly all your friends and didn't want to kill you etc).

Atheist Antony Flew, on consideration of some of these arguments, although he remained some kind of Deist, concluded God certainly exists.

Sir Fred Hoyle remarked about Fine-Tuning, maybe a little crudely but fairly summarizing its Evidence for Design: "A common sense interpretation of the facts suggests that a superintellect has monkeyed with physics, as well as with chemistry and biology, and that there are no blind forces worth speaking about in nature. The numbers one calculates from the facts seem to me so overwhelming as to put this conclusion almost beyond question." Like Flew, he too was a former Atheist.

All in all, Saint Thomas' principle of Design is quite sound imo in the modern age, and can be developed further in light of recent Scientific Discoveries.

Thoughts? How much more does the Creator/Designer of the Universe have to do for us in order for us to acknowledge His Existence? For Him to have created DNA is like personally autographing each cell of ours.

Look forward to an irenic discussion.

God Bless, All.
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#2
RE: Signature in the Cell: DNA as Evidence for Design, beside Nature's Laws/Fine-Tuning.
Poppycock.
"Never trust a fox. Looks like a dog, behaves like a cat."
~ Erin Hunter
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#3
RE: Signature in the Cell: DNA as Evidence for Design, beside Nature's Laws/Fine-Tuning.
If someone or something wrote the code where did that person come from, and why did he do such a bad job?
The meek shall inherit the Earth, the rest of us will fly to the stars.

Never underestimate the power of very stupid people in large groups

Arguing with an engineer is like wrestling with a pig in mud ..... after a while you realise that the pig likes it!

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#4
RE: Signature in the Cell: DNA as Evidence for Design, beside Nature's Laws/Fine-Tuning.
The chief flaw in the design argument is that it is exactly backwards. The existence of intelligence, DNA, life, gene coding, and so on is only evidence of design if one presupposes that these things were deliberately designed to achieve the Universe we see around us.

The fine tuning argument is equally flawed. Obviously, if physical constants were different, the Universe would be different. This doesn't mean that intelligence, life, genetic codes, etc wouldn't exist. It means they would look different. It also doesn't explain why the number of places inimical to life vastly exceed the number of places conducive to it, or why nature operates in a rather sloppy fashion.

For the record, the scholarly consensus is that the Book of Job dates from the 6th century BCE, not the 20th.

Boru
‘But it does me no injury for my neighbour to say there are twenty gods or no gods. It neither picks my pocket nor breaks my leg.’ - Thomas Jefferson
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#5
RE: Signature in the Cell: DNA as Evidence for Design, beside Nature's Laws/Fine-Tuning.
As expected you gave ample evidence that you have no clue what you are talking about, starting with natural "laws"* and the conflation of this scientific term with the legal term (intentionally or not, i dont care if you are insanely ignorant or just dishonest: You are wrong at any rate).


It ends with you claiming that:

Quote:narrow range .... of life-permitting universes is vastly less probable than life-precluding ones

which is an assertion for which you have no data, and for which you can not have any data. Prove me wrong by showing your probability calculations for universes with life vs those without with reference to the (variations of) natural constants.
And even IF you could demonstrate that our universe is rather improbable....have you heared of people winning the lottery? Still no "first cause" needed, much less a sentient one.

So, there is at least half a dozen fundamental hurdles you have to cross before you can arrive at "god exists!", starting with your own, staggering ignorance.


*i am leaving out your complete ignorance about the context of the usage of the word "code" for DNA.
Cetero censeo religionem delendam esse
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#6
RE: Signature in the Cell: DNA as Evidence for Design, beside Nature's Laws/Fine-Tuning.
(June 17, 2023 at 4:06 am)Tomato Wrote: Poppycock.

Lol. Great Argument, Bro. Logically reasoned through from beginning to end. </sarcasm>

Zebo Wrote:If someone or something wrote the code where did that person come from, and why did he do such a bad job?


The Principle of Contingent Causation answers that. That is St. Thomas' Third Way, and I developed/modified it in another thread. Not sure/can't recall if you posted on that thread, Zebo, but it was deleted for other reasons. Basically, it goes like this: (1) every contingent being requires a cause; (2) the chain of causation cannot go on forever, and therefore, it is not possible for every being in existence to be a contingent being (3) therefore, some being exists non-contingently, i.e. Necessarily, without beginning or end. The proof some such being exists is the impossibility of infinite regress.

While contingent designers (like e.g. hypothesized Alien Designers, which some Atheists now believe in; which might work for DNA, presuming they live on some Alien Planets and designed us) would indeed require another designer, a Necessarily Existent Designer does not, by definition of Necessary Existence. What exists contingently could conceivably or possibly not exist; any alleged Alien Designer would definitely fall into this category, as the planet on which this supposed alien exists could be conceived as not existing. The First Cause of all beings, whom the principle of contingent causation proves to have existed non-contingently, does not. 

As for it allegedly being a bad job, that is subjective. Beside the effects of sin on the fallen creation, even Richard Dawkins, and Bill Gates, cited by Meyer, admitted DNA is “DNA is like a computer program but far, far more advanced than any software ever created". If a Being by Himself is more intelligent than all human beings collectively are, that's significantly Intelligent. Can you or I design a computer program as advanced as DNA is? Not likely.

God Bless.

Edit: Just saw 2 responses before I responded. Will read and respond to other responses later. Regards, Xavier.
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#7
RE: Signature in the Cell: DNA as Evidence for Design, beside Nature's Laws/Fine-Tuning.
So typical ID nonsense 

Arguments from credulity 

Arguments from big numbers and built on faulty assumptions about life ranges

False analogies about comparing man-made structures to non-man-made structures 

Arguments from authority (bill gates is not a biologist therefore his opinion doesn't mean a thing)

Misquatations (Dawkins acknowledges DNA is a code but denies any notion it had to be intelligently designed ) (he doesn't mean the same way Meyers does proving once again dishonesty)

The tired argument is that simply because humans can't do something nature couldn't either therefore magic. This is dumb Humans have only been making programs for less than 200 years. Nature had billions of years to create DNA

Tired ramblings about causality written by long-dead theologians opinions about something he could never have known. 

Nothing new here and nothing that hasn't been dealt with a million times on this forum.So no evidence to be found here at all

Yawn 🥱
"Change was inevitable"


Nemo sicut deus debet esse!

[Image: Canada_Flag.jpg?v=1646203843]



 “No matter what men think, abortion is a fact of life. Women have always had them; they always have and they always will. Are they going to have good ones or bad ones? Will the good ones be reserved for the rich, while the poor women go to quacks?”
–SHIRLEY CHISHOLM


      
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#8
RE: Signature in the Cell: DNA as Evidence for Design, beside Nature's Laws/Fine-Tuning.
So, the geneticists among the camel herders wandering the Middle East in the ancient past knew that shit, OP? Or are you just scraping for any tiny, minute, desperate pseudo-evidence to prop up a claim that's as substantive as a cloud?

Asking for a friend.
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#9
RE: Signature in the Cell: DNA as Evidence for Design, beside Nature's Laws/Fine-Tuning.
(June 17, 2023 at 4:44 am)Nishant Xavier Wrote:
(June 17, 2023 at 4:06 am)Tomato Wrote: Poppycock.

Lol. Great Argument, Bro. Logically reasoned through from beginning to end. </sarcasm>

Zebo Wrote:If someone or something wrote the code where did that person come from, and why did he do such a bad job?


The Principle of Contingent Causation answers that. That is St. Thomas' Third Way, and I developed/modified it in another thread. Not sure/can't recall if you posted on that thread, Zebo, but it was deleted for other reasons. Basically, it goes like this: (1) every contingent being requires a cause; (2) the chain of causation cannot go on forever, and therefore, it is not possible for every being in existence to be a contingent being (3) therefore, some being exists non-contingently, i.e. Necessarily, without beginning or end. The proof some such being exists is the impossibility of infinite regress.

While contingent designers (like e.g. hypothesized Alien Designers, which some Atheists now believe in; which might work for DNA, presuming they live on some Alien Planets and designed us) would indeed require another designer, a Necessarily Existent Designer does not, by definition of Necessary Existence. What exists contingently could conceivably or possibly not exist; any alleged Alien Designer would definitely fall into this category, as the planet on which this supposed alien exists could be conceived as not existing. The First Cause of all beings, whom the principle of contingent causation proves to have existed non-contingently, does not. 

As for it allegedly being a bad job, that is subjective. Beside the effects of sin on the fallen creation, even Richard Dawkins, and Bill Gates, cited by Meyer, admitted DNA is “DNA is like a computer program but far, far more advanced than any software ever created". If a Being by Himself is more intelligent than all human beings collectively are, that's significantly Intelligent. Can you or I design a computer program as advanced as DNA is? Not likely.

God Bless.

Edit: Just saw 2 responses before I responded. Will read and respond to other responses later. Regards, Xavier.

It is a bad job, any first year engineering student could come up with a better design for the human body.
One common opening for eating drinking and breathing - bad design
The apendix, redundant leftover from an earlier form, now does more harm than good - bad design
The human spinal column is not well suited to walking on two legs - bad design
many, many other things as well

As for "St. Thomas' Third Way" sounds like bs to me, something that can cause stuff without itself being caused? Silly idea... go prove it!
The meek shall inherit the Earth, the rest of us will fly to the stars.

Never underestimate the power of very stupid people in large groups

Arguing with an engineer is like wrestling with a pig in mud ..... after a while you realise that the pig likes it!

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#10
RE: Signature in the Cell: DNA as Evidence for Design, beside Nature's Laws/Fine-Tuning.
(June 17, 2023 at 4:36 am)BrianSoddingBoru4 Wrote: Obviously, if physical constants were different, the Universe would be different. This doesn't mean that intelligence, life, genetic codes, etc wouldn't exist. It means they would look different. It also doesn't explain why the number of places inimical to life vastly exceed the number of places conducive to it, or why nature operates in a rather sloppy fashion.

Well, let's take the 2nd point first, Brian. Does the fact that "the number of places inimical to life vastly exceed the number of places conducive to it" really favor chance? Rather, it seems to show that, even given the existence of a Planet, on chance alone, the probability of intelligent life just forming by itself, even given numerous trials (different planets), is infinitesimally small. Otherwise, why is not the whole Universe, and virtually every Planet that we can observe beside Earth, teeming with intelligent life, as in fact some expected/predicted before what we now know?

1st point, next. Hope I can cite the Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy: "The global cosmic energy density \(\rho\) in the very early universe is extremely close to its so-called critical value \(\rho_c\). The critical value \(\rho_c\) is defined by the transition from negatively curved universes (\(\rho<\rho_c\)) to flat (critical density \(\rho=\rho_c\)) to positively curved (\(\rho>\rho_c\)) universes. Had \(\rho\) not been extremely close to \(\rho_c\) in the very early universe, life could not have existed: for slightly larger values, the universe would have recollapsed quickly and time would not have sufficed for stars to evolve; for slightly smaller values, the universe would have expanded so quickly that stars and galaxies would have failed to condense out (Rees 2000: ch. 6; Lewis & Barnes 2016: ch. 5)." (Published Aug 22, 2017, bolding mine). And that's just one constant. It had to be "just right" (neither slightly larger nor slightly smaller), otherwise planets, stars or galaxies would never have formed in the first place. That's where the Fine Tuning Principle comes from.

Deese: "intentionally or not, i dont care if you are insanely ignorant or just dishonest"

In future, if you're just going to abuse/insult me, I'm not going to respond to you. Nothing I said is dishonest or ignorant; if you think it was, quote that part and prove it. If you disagree with some premise, name that premise and give your own reasons why the opposite is true or the conclusion doesn't follow. I notice you Atheists often excuse yourself from the obligation of giving evidence/constructing syllogisms/logical proofs for what you believe, while demanding we Christians/Theists do all this and more, then refusing to acknowledge it when we do provide them.

"Prove me wrong by showing your probability calculations for universes with life vs those without with reference to the (variations of) natural constants."

Answered above in response to Brian. Consult the source I mentioned, a scholarly Encyclopedia and secular publication.

"And even IF you could demonstrate that our universe is rather improbable....have you heared of people winning the lottery?"


Non sequitur. Because the numbers drawn in the lottery are numbers on tickets that have already been distributed, the probability of SOMEONE winning the Lottery is 1 (assuming all tickets have sold out; and the winner claims it). The probability of YOU PERSONALLY (or any random individual) winning the lottery is small.

Let's assume there are 5 numbers from 1 to 100 drawn in the lottery. You have to have all 5 correct to win. All tickets, including the winning ticket has been distributed.

Chances of you personally winning the lottery = (1/100)^5=10^-10. [Therefore, you ought not to assume this will be true, much less bet your life on it.]
Chances of someone winning the lottery (in most cases) = 1 or 100%. [This will certainly be true. Someone or the other will win, the game is made that way]

Someone will win, but it would be illogical for you to assume (much less bet/wager your life or house on it) that you will be that person who wins. 

The probability of life forming by chance is not like this, because there is no guarantee that "the winning ticket has been distributed", i.e. that intelligent life will form on chance alone. We are assessing two mutually exclusive and cumulatively exhaustive probabilities, i.e. that given that Life has formed (L), whether it did so by Chance (C/L), or Design (D/L). The less likely it is that life formed by chance, the more likely it is that life formed by design. This is not true in your above lottery analogy. Since P(C/L)+P(D/L)=1, the smaller the former is, the higher, or closer to 1, or more probable, the 2nd term in the equation is.

Why don't you respond to the analogy I gave? If 10 people were shooting at you, and it was extremely unlikely all of them would miss together, and yet you find yourself alive, what would you logically conclude? That all of them missed by chance? Really? Most of us would conclude that, since all of them almost certainly couldn't have missed by chance, they did not kill you by design. It's that simple. Design, not Chance, is the logical inference from fine-tuning. Here, the competing probabilities are, given that you survived (S), whether you did so by Chance © or Design (D). Since once more P(C/S)+P(D/S)=1, the inference is logically valid. Since P(C/S) is vanishingly small, therefore P(D/S) is nearly equal to 1, or 1-an infinitesimal amount. Stated in words, one can have 99.99999+% confidence, i.e. nearly 100% confidence that the event that came about, your survival (S) is explained by Design and not by Chance.

The above is analogous.

Other responses later. God Bless.
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