I literally cannot avoid sinning; so, why...

[Foxaèr]

Well, you could try explaining the conflict between your view that sin is a choice and the scriptural evidence that God forces people to sin. You could say that, if you’re so inclined.

Boru

But, don't you know, that's what Job is for. To show us that no matter how much the evil god makes us suffer, we should still love him and not sin.

[Lek]

Well, you could try explaining the conflict between your view that sin is a choice and the scriptural evidence that God forces people to sin. You could say that, if you’re so inclined.

Boru

But, don't you know, that's what Job is for. To show us that no matter how much the evil god makes us suffer, we should still love him and not sin.

And on and on..........

[Angrboda]

Going to ignore this question forever, @Lek?

I guess if he could either annilate me or give me complete peace I would!  Joking aside, we choose to sin. I guess God knows that, given the opportunity, we will choose sin. That's not saying at every point we will, but we still will. Don't take my word for trying to understand God because honestly, I don't know why. God does what he does.

So, then we don't have free will. Got it.

[BrianSoddingBoru4]

I think I prefer the old, pre-revelation Lek - at least he’d answer when asked something. Not good or even particularly thoughtful answers, but they were yards better than these soppy non-answers we’re getting now.

Boru

[zwanzig]

I guess if he could either annilate me or give me complete peace I would!  Joking aside, we choose to sin. I guess God knows that, given the opportunity, we will choose sin. That's not saying at every point we will, but we still will. Don't take my word for trying to understand God because honestly, I don't know why. God does what he does.

(Bold mine)

If that’s the case, can you explain why God deliberately deludes people into sin for the express purpose of damning them?

Boru

Well, you could try explaining the conflict between your view that sin is a choice and the scriptural evidence that God forces people to sin. You could say that, if you’re so inclined.

Boru

Both very well put and framed questions. Like, can we conclude that as described, god has free will to choose to sin or not? We've been batting this shuttlecock around enough, it feels trite to go through the process of properly defining the parameters of sin(besides, I'm pretty sure it got an exhaustive take somewhere in my companion thread to this one). But I feel like we could at least say he is capable of it, and could create beings capable of such free will as well. Like, the ability to genuinely choose and not do the thing.

But, don't you know, that's what Job is for. To show us that no matter how much the evil god makes us suffer, we should still love him and not sin.

Job is my second most hated Bible tale. The first one I hate the most is Abraham and Isaac. Funnily enough, both stories have the same message: god is malicious and thrives off of human suffering so you better love him.

So, then we don't have free will. Got it.

This is exactly it, isn't it? Like the loop takes us from "here to exercise free will >> but then sin being such a condition of the world that even the righteous cannot come out clean >> the Jesus extortion plot >> punishment if you don't accept the "gift" >> there is no choice even in the illusion of choice presented."

At least the Mormons had the sense to say, "It'll all get worked out in the eternities". Most other Christians really commit hard to " yeah, gods an arsehole but you gotta do what he says."

[BrianSoddingBoru4]

@Ten

Both very well put and framed questions. Like, can we conclude that as described, god has free will to choose to sin or not? We've been batting this shuttlecock around enough, it feels trite to go through the process of properly defining the parameters of sin(besides, I'm pretty sure it got an exhaustive take somewhere in my companion thread to this one). But I feel like we could at least say he is capable of it, and could create beings capable of such free will as well. Like, the ability to genuinely choose and not do the thing.

It’s actually the same question twice.

In a theistic context, I think that sin can be practically defined as ‘doing something God does not want you to do’. There’s a passage in 2 Thessalonians in which God actively prevents people from believing ‘the truth’ so that he can condemn them. This would seem to make the contention that people choose to sin problematic at best. If God can fiddle with your beliefs to this extent, it make the whole free will concept moot

I agree that God could just as easily created only people who, through their own free will, would choose to never sin. Why he didn’t is never adequately answered.

Boru

[Bucky Ball]

If I can't avoid sinning in this life, like no matter how hard I try, how much I love god, then why do I deserve to be punished? Why do I need to be forgiven for something I literally can't avoid doing?

God is still offended by the sin even though you have no power over it. It's simply a.matter of dropping the pride and asking for forgiveness. You can't completely live a sin-free life, but you can acknowledge that God has the power and will still forgive a repentant person. It's more about whether or not you want to sin.

Not to worry. There are no gods. 
If a perfect being is "offended" by anything, it's not a god. Being "offended" disturbs it's perfection. 
The gods should be offended however. The shit they made is imperfect. 
Do these people EVER think about how stupid this sort of sentimental drivel is ?

Sin was invented to explain to some why there is evil and things humans don't like in the world.
There never was a state of preternatural perfection. There was no "fall" life on this planet included all sorts of things before humans existed which
are now considered "sin", and there is absolutely no evidence of Adam and Eve.

[h4ym4n]

Why would something be a sin if it’s joyful, is what you should be asking yourself

Many of the worst murderers loved it.

Why would creator of everything create murder and make it joyful?

god could have written it on everyone’s heart that murder is a very unpleasant thing to do.  And rape would be another thing it could have programmed us not to want to do and get us to believe it is a free will desire not to rape or murder.

Don’t you think Lek?

[Lek]

Many of the worst murderers loved it.

Why would creator of everything create murder and make it joyful?

god could have written it on everyone’s heart that murder is a very unpleasant thing to do.  And rape would be another thing it could have programmed us not to want to do and get us to believe it is a free will desire not to rape or murder.

Don’t you think Lek?

I haven't figured that out yet. While we're at it, I also have a question for you. Why would a universe that just happens to be here be so hostile to it's inhabitants?

[The Grand Nudger]

Maybe it hates it's inhabitants.