For sake of argument, give two possibilities.

There is a spiritual world, there is an objective living morality light, and a believers can be in contact with a Divine Guide who manifests both outwardly and inwardly the path towards God and various good acts that has been revealed to the heart of the divine Guide.

Now assume for sake of argument, there is no spiritual world, no Guide, etc. Can an Atheist traverse objectively morality in the same way, and does goodness exist in the same way (stages, inward reality, exalted ranks, etc)?

We both seemingly acknowledge "goodness", but our understanding of the reality to me so distinct that it has no comparison or similarity.

We grow up, we take morals of our parents mostly, then society, and some we decide on our own. How does this compare to morality and goodness through vision through a Guide of God that calls toward God and manifests spiritual states and actions, and guides on how to act?

One clearly results in everyone thinking their opinion is right, belittling other opinions, one culture thinking they are superior to another culture and so much people trying to impose their own sense of morals on others.

The true way if God exists to be righteous would be to guard regarding God and seek the means toward God (Guides of God to be obeyed).

Now for the sake of argument, say Deism is true. We have the same problem as in Atheism.  Everyone is left to their opinion and follows their desire without guidance from God.

We don't need your fucking barbaric, 7th century god.  The law of a secular nation is codified.  Every state has one.

A very simple and common definition of Good is that is which assists your fellow man. Sometimes this can sit perfectly comfortably alongside religious "revealed" morality; taking care of the sick, feeding the hungry and other good works. Where it really differs is in what I would call "arbitrary" morality, actions which have no effect upon your fellow humans (thus neither good nor bad according to the definition I listed) but are singled out as horrifically evil by religious morality. This ranges from everything from swearing in private to not killing everything that doesn't agree with you.

It's very easy to have notions of good or bad without a deity, we're pack animals by nature and like all pack animals we have an interest in the survival, growth and continuation of the pack. Instead of not stealing candy from a child because El Cantare/Allah/Lord Shnookiewuffles will smite you if you do, you don't steal it because you know it would cause the child distress and you should have hopefully cultivated enough empathy to know that isn't a wise course of action for a creature who spends a great deal of time in the company of other members of his species to take.

But supposing your premise of the spirit guide is correct, what guarantee do we have that this force wants to help us or lead us toward "good"? What is to say the higher power isn't entirely apathetic or actually evil? What's to say the higher power you describe is actually Iblis trying to deceive everyone? Even if such a force revealed itself, why should we assume following it is the right course of action?

(July 21, 2015 at 9:38 pm)MysticKnight Wrote: For sake of argument, give two possibilities.

There is a spiritual world, there is an objective living morality light, and a believers can be in contact with a Divine Guide who manifests both outwardly and inwardly the path towards God and various good acts that has been revealed to the heart of the divine Guide.

Now assume for sake of argument, there is no spiritual world, no Guide, etc. Can an Atheist traverse objectively morality in the same way, and does goodness exist in the same way (stages, inward reality, exalted ranks, etc)?

We both seemingly acknowledge "goodness", but our understanding of the reality to me so distinct that it has no comparison or similarity.

We grow up, we take morals of our parents mostly, then society, and some we decide on our own. How does this compare to morality and goodness through vision through a Guide of God that calls toward God and manifests spiritual states and actions, and guides on how to act?

One clearly results in everyone thinking their opinion is right, belittling other opinions, one culture thinking they are superior to another culture and so much people trying to impose their own sense of morals on others.

The true way if God exists to be righteous would be to guard regarding God and seek the means toward God (Guides of God to be obeyed).

Now for the sake of argument, say Deism is true. We have the same problem as in Atheism.  Everyone is left to their opinion and follows their desire without guidance from God.

Can you condense this into 2 or 3 sentences that make sense?

Quote:Can Atheist be objectively moral in the case of a possible follower of an infallible?

Huh? I better investigate further and maybe pick up some context clues...

Quote:There is a spiritual world, there is an objective living morality light, and a believers can be in contact with a Divine Guide who manifests both outwardly and inwardly the path towards God and various good acts that has been revealed to the heart of the divine Guide.

*squints*

Again?!? Really?!? Fucking really?!?

For fucks sake. WOULD YOU FAITHERS PLEASE STOP IMPUGNING OUR MORALITY JUST BECAUSE YOU THINK YOU HAVE ALL THE ANSWERS!

(July 21, 2015 at 9:48 pm)Metis Wrote: A very simple and common definition of Good is that is which assists your fellow man. Sometimes this can sit perfectly comfortably alongside religious "revealed" morality; taking care of the sick, feeding the hungry and other good works. Where it really differs is in what I would call "arbitrary" morality, actions which have no effect upon your fellow humans (thus neither good nor bad according to the definition I listed) but are singled out as horrifically evil by religious morality. This ranges from everything from swearing in private to killing everything that doesn't agree with you.

It's very easy to have notions of good or bad without a deity, we're pack animals by nature and like all pack animals we have an interest in the survival, growth and continuation of the pack. 

Sure, we can have our own definition. I am not disagreeing. It's just while we use the same word, the reality of them both are completely different and they have no comparison.

Quote:But supposing your premise of the spirit guide is correct, what guarantee do we have that this force wants to help us or lead us toward "good"? What is to say the higher power isn't entirely apathetic or actually evil? What's to say the higher power you describe is actually Iblis trying to deceive everyone? Even if such a force revealed itself, why should we assume following it is the right course of action?

This is a good question. First, the reality of the divine names of God is such that one of them is God is Truthful, trustworthy. The Quran similarly describes the word of his light, the Prophet "One to be obeyed, one to be trusted". In other words, if you see the light of the holy names of God in the light of this soul, and it's pure light, and pure beauty, you can see it is trustworthy and you can witness it is "true life".
This is while Iblis or devils in the unseen are "dark" and "unclean". They can't take on the clothes of honor of God and bestow it upon believers, they can't manifest glorification of God sincerely, they are far removed from God's valley, they can't show inward spirit of exalted honor, they are rather cursed and far removed from God.
Therefore if you ever witness such guides, they aren't deceives, and you can see the trustworthiness manifest in their light spiritually and what they are manifesting to you to imitate you see the praise and beauty to imitate inwardly and spiritually.
So the question of deception is impossible.
Of course you need such a guide if God exists and there is many stages of to traverse, and praiseworthy exalted stations to reach.

(July 21, 2015 at 10:20 pm)MysticKnight Wrote: First, the reality of the divine names of God is such that one of them is God is Truthful, trustworthy. The Quran similarly describes the word of his light, the Prophet "One to be obeyed, one to be trusted". In other words, if you see the light of the holy names of God in the light of this soul, and it's pure light, and pure beauty, you can see it is trustworthy and you can witness it is "true life".
This is while Iblis or devils in the unseen are "dark" and "unclean". They can't take on the clothes of honor of God and bestow it upon believers, they can't manifest glorification of God sincerely, they are far removed from God's valley, they can't show inward spirit of exalted honor, they are rather cursed and far removed from God.
Therefore if you ever witness such guides, they aren't deceives, and you can see the trustworthiness manifest in their light spiritually and what they are manifesting to you to imitate you see the praise and beauty to imitate inwardly and spiritually.
So the question of deception is impossible.
Of course you need such a guide if God exists and there is many stages of to traverse, and praiseworthy exalted stations to reach.

Does this all come from the Quran? What 'light' are you referring to?

(July 21, 2015 at 10:34 pm)Jörmungandr Wrote: Does this all come from the Quran?

I believe so with proper and inspired understanding.

Sorry MK.
Nice try.

But I get my guidance from the pink unicorn.
My pink unicorn's beliefs have " never" been used for evil!
You should try it...!