(August 11, 2015 at 8:49 am)lkingpinl Wrote:

(August 11, 2015 at 4:50 am)robvalue Wrote: ...

I'm telling you as a concerned friend, your excuses for God sound just like battered spouse syndrome.

...

I'm a little curious why you say you are concerned however.  If there is no God, each person finds their own meaning in this life and I find that in my delusion of a sky daddy which fulfills my life to immense happiness.  You believe there is nothing but this short life and we simply decay, to say you are concerned makes no sense.  Concerned about what?

If there is no god, you still have this life.  You can live it well or poorly, and you can influence others, helping to improve their lives or helping make their lives worse.

If you pay attention to the metaphor that robvalue provided, you should understand what he is concerned about.  Imagine a woman who is married to a man who beats her.  Imagine she makes up excuses for her husband, and imagine that she says that she is happy to be married to her husband.  Do you just walk away and say that is fine, that she is happy and so we should all do nothing about it?

Many of us were religious in the past, and know what it is like to believe in religion and know what it is like to believe it is nonsense.  I have never met anyone who deconverted who was not happier being an atheist, after a sufficient time passed for them to get used to the idea.  (At first, it is common to be upset, but that tends to go away with time.)  I should imagine that leaving an abusive spouse is similar, though I have no personal experience with that, nor am I overly familiar with others who have.

Thanks for the reply and the links Kingpin. I'm afraid I'm unimpressed and they sound to an outsider as yet more battered spouse syndrome and mental gymnastics to try and get the bible to say the opposite of what it really says. This is what I'm saying, how can a moral guide be so utterly wrong that you need years of training and people explaining to you why you should actually just ignore it?! It seems simpler to just not present them with the book in the first place and teach them the golden rule. I could go into detail about how rotten those articles are, if there's any point doing so. Anyhow.

These guys have already explained, I'm concerned because although the God is not real, your state of mind is very real. I see most Christians as being in a battered spouse relationship, but making excuses for an imaginary partner. The God has you always making excuses for what is clearly (to us) outrageous abusive behaviour, and that you interpret all of this as "love". It also clearly has you thinking there's something wrong with you that needs fixing, and that you will be lost without it.

Myself (and I'm sure many others here) are concerned about what this mental state can do to people we care about, like you. I don't bother even making this point very often because of the barriers of stupidity and abuse I get way before conversation can get to this point. I'm worried about the long term effects. I am utterly sickened by the way Christianity grips and manipulates its adherents, and I'm seeing that same language come from you. That makes me think that perhaps you're not as happy as you make out.

But I'll leave it at that, I'm not going to pressure you. I'm genuinely concerned, that is all. If another friend was getting abuse I couldn't stand by and do nothing either. The fact that the abuser isn't real makes it awkward, but you are real, and I care about you.

(I make no absolute certainty claims; I can't be bothered to caveat every statement about God.)

(August 11, 2015 at 11:26 am)robvalue Wrote: Thanks for the reply and the links Kingpin. I'm afraid I'm unimpressed and they sound to an outsider as yet more battered spouse syndrome and mental gymnastics to try and get the bible to say the opposite of what it really says. This is what I'm saying, how can a moral guide be so utterly wrong that you need years of training and people explaining to you why you should actually just ignore it?! It seems simpler to just not present them with the book in the first place and teach them the golden rule. I could go into detail about how rotten those articles are, if there's any point doing so. Anyhow.

These guys have already explained, I'm concerned because although the God is not real, your state of mind is very real. I see most Christians as being in a battered spouse relationship, but making excuses for an imaginary partner. The God has you always making excuses for what is clearly (to us) outrageous abusive behaviour, and that you interpret all of this as "love". It also clearly has you thinking there's something wrong with you that needs fixing, and that you will be lost without it.

Myself (and I'm sure many others here) are concerned about what this mental state can do to people we care about, like you. I don't bother even making this point very often because of the barriers of stupidity and abuse I get way before conversation can get to this point. I'm worried about the long term effects. I am utterly sickened by the way Christianity grips and manipulates its adherents, and I'm seeing that same language come from you. That makes me think that perhaps you're not as happy as you make out.

But I'll leave it at that, I'm not going to pressure you. I'm genuinely concerned, that is all. If another friend was getting abuse I couldn't stand by and do nothing either. The fact that the abuser isn't real makes it awkward, but you are real, and I care about you.

(I make no absolute certainty claims; I can't be bothered to caveat every statement about God.)

I understand your points here Rob and value your concern for my well being.   I actually converted from Atheism to Christianity when I was 18 coming from a horrific childhood. You may say that I am invoking this idea of a loving God purely out of a need for emotional comfort stemming from a horrific past, and while it does indeed give me immense comfort that is not why I continue to hold it, I hold because I personally find it to be true. I cannot logically look at this world and universe and not deduce something far greater than ourselves. Naturalism offers no value, no meaning, just depression and despair. I look at an intelligible world and have to logically deduce intelligence behind it. I cannot fathom that this immensely complex universe is pure blind luck, it goes against reason. It's like someone showing me a dictionary with all of the words in correct order with all of their definitions and then saying it came to be out of an explosion in a printing press by pure luck and chance and that it is precisely what we expect to happen based on the properties we see of this printing press. To me that is illogical.

You may say, "I don't know" but when facing tough questions in life, the answers that a naturalistic framework offer are bleak. Maybe you think I'm not happy with those answers so I need to believe in something else to make those answers more re-assuring. That's fine if you want to believe that.

Thank you I won't bring it up again, unless you decide you want to discuss it.

(August 11, 2015 at 11:49 am)lkingpinl Wrote: I understand your points here Rob and value your concern for my well being.    I actually converted from Atheism to Christianity when I was 18 coming from a horrific childhood.  You may say that I am invoking this idea of a loving God purely out of a need for emotional comfort stemming from a horrific past, and while it does indeed give me immense comfort that is not why I continue to hold it, I hold because I personally find it to be true.  I cannot logically look at this world and universe and not deduce something far greater than ourselves.  Naturalism offers no value, no meaning, just depression and despair.  I look at an intelligible world and have to logically deduce intelligence behind it.  I cannot fathom that this immensely complex universe is pure blind luck, it goes against reason.  It's like someone showing me a dictionary with all of the words in correct order with all of their definitions and then saying it came to be out of an explosion in a printing press by pure luck and chance and that it is precisely what we expect to happen based on the properties we see of this printing press.  To me that is illogical.

You may say, "I don't know" but when facing tough questions in life, the answers that a naturalistic framework offer are bleak.  Maybe you think I'm not happy with those answers so I need to believe in something else to make those answers more re-assuring.  That's fine if you want to believe that.  

See, this is where I would tend to disagree. I was religious for most of my life, and I was in no way shielded from despair by my faith; quite the contrary, in fact. The older I got and the more I learned of the Bible, the more it seemed to me that the world is the way it is because God made it that way, and that in the grand scheme of things he gives absolutely no shits about our suffering and no shits how unfair his creation actually is. Looking at the book that was supposed to be his word, the God I had been raised to believe in was clearly a monster simply and only for creating such a horrible place for us to live, an even more horrible place for most of us to go to, not to mention all the other atrocious shit he does to whole races of people throughout scripture.


Atheism actually freed me from that despair. I used to be at least partially suicidal because of how bleak and unfair existence under God was, but when I realized that the world wasn't consciously created by someone who knew full well how fucked up it would get, I actually felt much better. I also realized how precious this life is, since it's evidently over once our brains turn off. Not only that, but when I looked at the actual stats and realized that humanity is getting both more moral and more secular by the decade, I was further uplifted into believing that maybe humanity had a better chance at being ok than I'd previously thought. I even reconsidered my stance on having children because I no longer have to worry about their going to hell if I can't convince them to follow the ideology I was raised with or not to love people who are the wrong gender.


Naturalism is full of hope and potential because it means the system isn't hopelessly rigged against the majority of humanity. We don't have to fight the will of some all-powerful being to make things better, and we don't have to bend to its arbitrarily cruel and bloody whims, either. All we have to do is act, learn, and act again. Without higher powers to fuck with us and get in our way, there's more hope for humanity, not less. Probably the greatest (if not only) "blessing" God ever gave me was to finally offend my critical thinking to the extent that I realized he could not exist, especially not as written in the Bible.

(August 11, 2015 at 11:49 am)lkingpinl Wrote:

(August 11, 2015 at 11:26 am)robvalue Wrote: Thanks for the reply and the links Kingpin. I'm afraid I'm unimpressed and they sound to an outsider as yet more battered spouse syndrome and mental gymnastics to try and get the bible to say the opposite of what it really says. This is what I'm saying, how can a moral guide be so utterly wrong that you need years of training and people explaining to you why you should actually just ignore it?! It seems simpler to just not present them with the book in the first place and teach them the golden rule. I could go into detail about how rotten those articles are, if there's any point doing so. Anyhow.

These guys have already explained, I'm concerned because although the God is not real, your state of mind is very real. I see most Christians as being in a battered spouse relationship, but making excuses for an imaginary partner. The God has you always making excuses for what is clearly (to us) outrageous abusive behaviour, and that you interpret all of this as "love". It also clearly has you thinking there's something wrong with you that needs fixing, and that you will be lost without it.

Myself (and I'm sure many others here) are concerned about what this mental state can do to people we care about, like you. I don't bother even making this point very often because of the barriers of stupidity and abuse I get way before conversation can get to this point. I'm worried about the long term effects. I am utterly sickened by the way Christianity grips and manipulates its adherents, and I'm seeing that same language come from you. That makes me think that perhaps you're not as happy as you make out.

But I'll leave it at that, I'm not going to pressure you. I'm genuinely concerned, that is all. If another friend was getting abuse I couldn't stand by and do nothing either. The fact that the abuser isn't real makes it awkward, but you are real, and I care about you.

(I make no absolute certainty claims; I can't be bothered to caveat every statement about God.)

I understand your points here Rob and value your concern for my well being.    I actually converted from Atheism to Christianity when I was 18 coming from a horrific childhood.  You may say that I am invoking this idea of a loving God purely out of a need for emotional comfort stemming from a horrific past, and while it does indeed give me immense comfort that is not why I continue to hold it, I hold because I personally find it to be true.  I cannot logically look at this world and universe and not deduce something far greater than ourselves.  Naturalism offers no value, no meaning, just depression and despair.  I look at an intelligible world and have to logically deduce intelligence behind it.  I cannot fathom that this immensely complex universe is pure blind luck, it goes against reason.  It's like someone showing me a dictionary with all of the words in correct order with all of their definitions and then saying it came to be out of an explosion in a printing press by pure luck and chance and that it is precisely what we expect to happen based on the properties we see of this printing press.  To me that is illogical.

You may say, "I don't know" but when facing tough questions in life, the answers that a naturalistic framework offer are bleak.  Maybe you think I'm not happy with those answers so I need to believe in something else to make those answers more re-assuring.  That's fine if you want to believe that.  

All I can say is if you ever decide to divorce that bastard God, we're keeping you Kingy.

(August 11, 2015 at 1:30 pm)Whateverist the White Wrote:

(August 11, 2015 at 11:49 am)lkingpinl Wrote: I understand your points here Rob and value your concern for my well being.    I actually converted from Atheism to Christianity when I was 18 coming from a horrific childhood.  You may say that I am invoking this idea of a loving God purely out of a need for emotional comfort stemming from a horrific past, and while it does indeed give me immense comfort that is not why I continue to hold it, I hold because I personally find it to be true.  I cannot logically look at this world and universe and not deduce something far greater than ourselves.  Naturalism offers no value, no meaning, just depression and despair.  I look at an intelligible world and have to logically deduce intelligence behind it.  I cannot fathom that this immensely complex universe is pure blind luck, it goes against reason.  It's like someone showing me a dictionary with all of the words in correct order with all of their definitions and then saying it came to be out of an explosion in a printing press by pure luck and chance and that it is precisely what we expect to happen based on the properties we see of this printing press.  To me that is illogical.

You may say, "I don't know" but when facing tough questions in life, the answers that a naturalistic framework offer are bleak.  Maybe you think I'm not happy with those answers so I need to believe in something else to make those answers more re-assuring.  That's fine if you want to believe that.  

All I can say is if you ever decide to divorce that bastard God, we're keeping you Kingy.

Thanks.  I like you guys too.  

(August 11, 2015 at 1:24 pm)Redbeard The Pink Wrote:

(August 11, 2015 at 11:49 am)lkingpinl Wrote: I understand your points here Rob and value your concern for my well being.    I actually converted from Atheism to Christianity when I was 18 coming from a horrific childhood.  You may say that I am invoking this idea of a loving God purely out of a need for emotional comfort stemming from a horrific past, and while it does indeed give me immense comfort that is not why I continue to hold it, I hold because I personally find it to be true.  I cannot logically look at this world and universe and not deduce something far greater than ourselves.  Naturalism offers no value, no meaning, just depression and despair.  I look at an intelligible world and have to logically deduce intelligence behind it.  I cannot fathom that this immensely complex universe is pure blind luck, it goes against reason.  It's like someone showing me a dictionary with all of the words in correct order with all of their definitions and then saying it came to be out of an explosion in a printing press by pure luck and chance and that it is precisely what we expect to happen based on the properties we see of this printing press.  To me that is illogical.

You may say, "I don't know" but when facing tough questions in life, the answers that a naturalistic framework offer are bleak.  Maybe you think I'm not happy with those answers so I need to believe in something else to make those answers more re-assuring.  That's fine if you want to believe that.  

See, this is where I would tend to disagree. I was religious for most of my life, and I was in no way shielded from despair by my faith; quite the contrary, in fact. The older I got and the more I learned of the Bible, the more it seemed to me that the world is the way it is because God made it that way, and that in the grand scheme of things he gives absolutely no shits about our suffering and no shits how unfair his creation actually is. Looking at the book that was supposed to be his word, the God I had been raised to believe in was clearly a monster simply and only for creating such a horrible place for us to live, an even more horrible place for most of us to go to, not to mention all the other atrocious shit he does to whole races of people throughout scripture.


Atheism actually freed me from that despair. I used to be at least partially suicidal because of how bleak and unfair existence under God was, but when I realized that the world wasn't consciously created by someone who knew full well how fucked up it would get, I actually felt much better. I also realized how precious this life is, since it's evidently over once our brains turn off. Not only that, but when I looked at the actual stats and realized that humanity is getting both more moral and more secular by the decade, I was further uplifted into believing that maybe humanity had a better chance at being ok than I'd previously thought. I even reconsidered my stance on having children because I no longer have to worry about their going to hell if I can't convince them to follow the ideology I was raised with or not to love people who are the wrong gender.


Naturalism is full of hope and potential because it means the system isn't hopelessly rigged against the majority of humanity. We don't have to fight the will of some all-powerful being to make things better, and we don't have to bend to its arbitrarily cruel and bloody whims, either. All we have to do is act, learn, and act again. Without higher powers to fuck with us and get in our way, there's more hope for humanity, not less. Probably the greatest (if not only) "blessing" God ever gave me was to finally offend my critical thinking to the extent that I realized he could not exist, especially not as written in the Bible.

(emphasis mine)

If you don't mind I'd like to address just a few things you mention here.  You say that God made this horrible place and that he does not care about human suffering.  Would you prefer he made a world where evil was not possible and that all there is was love?  Do you find it logical for me to say that evil is really just a violation or purpose?  If God created a place where there was no evil (no violation of purpose) would that not be mindless automatons just doing what they are told (or programmed) to do?  Why do people have children in this world that have the free will to defy their rules?

God is NOT distant from human suffering.  People often ask me why Jesus came when he did and not earlier in history.  I thought about that as well.  Think of the manner of his death.  “Crucifixion was invented by the barbarians at the edge of the known world and taken over by the Greeks and Romans.  It is probably the cruelest method of execution ever practiced.  Delayed death is intensified until maximum torture had been inflicted.  Roman citizens were exempted except in extreme cases of treason.  Cicero writing about it says this, ‘To bind a Roman citizen is a crime, to flog him is an abomination; to kill him is almost an act of murder, to crucify him is what?!’”  To bind him is cruel, to flog him is cruel and to crucify him defies language!  No wonder Trypho writing to Justin Martyr said, “I am still incredulous over this whole crucifixion issue.”(From Dialogue with Trypho).  The word excruciating comes from the Latin, excruciatus which literally means, “out of the cross”.  The very word for extreme agony is borrowed from the metaphor of the cross, which was not a metaphor but a reality.

No evil does not mean no free will. We have billions of good choices and billions of bad choices. Remove the bad choices, and add more good choices! Remove suffering, and make it so we just have wonderfully many ways to enjoy ourself. I can imagine it, so surely God can do it. If we can only be happy by there being a possibility of being sad, that is a bad design decision. I say this every time someone brings up free will, and it just sails away into the sunset.

There is a universal, unconquerable gap between "something out there in control" and "the specific character in a story book". That's all it is, a story book, surrounded by oral myths. That is all any religious text is. If you'd never heard of Christianity and picked up this book, you'd think the God character was an evil sick bastard and you'd be glad he wasn't real.

I'm a methodological naturalist. I don't claim the natural world is all there is, I just acknowledge that it's all we can know about. I see no point in guessing about things I can't possibly test in any way.

And quite the contrary, knowing this life is all there is gives this mean ultimate meaning and purpose: it's all I have, and will ever have. Thinking it's some stupid test before the real life begins would devoid it of all meaning for me.

So yes, I'd totally agree you use religion as a way to deal with life. That of course is your decision We all find ways to cope, life is fucking hard. I cope by focusing on what little good I can do to help other people and animals while I am here, because this is their only life too.

(August 11, 2015 at 11:49 am)lkingpinl Wrote: I look at an intelligible world and have to logically deduce intelligence behind it.  I cannot fathom that this immensely complex universe is pure blind luck, it goes against reason.  It's like someone showing me a dictionary with all of the words in correct order with all of their definitions and then saying it came to be out of an explosion in a printing press by pure luck and chance and that it is precisely what we expect to happen based on the properties we see of this printing press.  To me that is illogical.

It is illogical because it didn't happen that way. A ball on top of a mountain may roll down into one valley, or another valley, but it will still roll down regardless of randomness.

Science has explained to a greater or lesser degree how complexity has developed since the Big Bang when there was only radiation. Your dictionary analogy is not appropriate, unless your dictionary started with 26 letters which then assembled into more complicated words over time, with some letters and words being more attracted to each other than others. All the while an influx of energy then blows words and sentences apart in a dynamic way.

This process has been demonstrated in principle and in practice in many different ways independently in many different scientific fields.