(October 28, 2010 at 3:47 pm)Minimalist Wrote: Oh good, another apologist. Now we get the Gospel According to Theophilus!

This should be entertaining.

I'll bring the Chips, The Ad Hoc festival is about to being

Quote:that Luke is more historically accurate

Luke contains the Quirinius fuck-up. Can't reconcile that with matthew and his Herod the Great dating.

(October 28, 2010 at 1:42 pm)Minimalist Wrote: All of the events took place in Galilee until your boy decided to trot down to Jerusalem. That is crystal clear.

Also, at no point does this ( or ANY ) of your gospels even claim to be written by "eye-witnesses." These are anonymous accounts written much later with 2 ( matthew and luke ) derived from the first ( mark ). The names were not assigned until late in the 2d century when the concept of "apostolic authority" got to be commonplace among xtians. "John" has significant differences to the other 3.

Don't worry. We'll get into all that. If you can't handle this simple one I shudder to think how you will twist yourself into knots when we get to the tougher ones.

Basically, you need to stop believing fundie bullshit and face the reality of what these texts say.

Min, where is Ehrman, still lost I bet. Why did you not answer the statements I made about Ehrman having Jesus going in the wrong direction and Ehrman's sloppy counting. If such an intelligent man can not count properly or figure out the difference between north and south then why should I take this man seriously. Do not come back with that weak Galilee stuff either, facts are facts my factually minded friend. We both know that the originals are lost forever and without them you can only speculate about the origin of the Gospels. You and Ehrman can use your hat tricks all you want but in the end it is all speculation. Min you know that the Gospels do not record all the events or time of the life of Jesus and that this sometimes makes things appear different than they really are if one does not dig into the scriptures. So why are you relying on Ehrman for all your answers. Ehrman has used deceit, by wording his writings to look like he has discovered errors in the scriptures when all he has done is misled people to satisfy his own ego.

Because i have no intention of rewarding your attempts to create a strawman. Read, (carefully for a change) what Ehrman wrote in the original passage and then understand that all you did was introduce a lot of horseshit apologetics into it which HE DID NOT SAY. You said it....and that frankly counts for shit.

He merely pointed out that "john" places the cleaning of the temple at the beginning of the ministry while all the others place it at the end.

Other than whine you have totally failed to explain the discrepancy which is, oddly, what Ehrman predicts from people like you based on his long experience teaching this shit.

(October 28, 2010 at 5:32 pm)Minimalist Wrote: Because i have no intention of rewarding your attempts to create a strawman. Read, (carefully for a change) what Ehrman wrote in the original passage and then understand that all you did was introduce a lot of horseshit apologetics into it which HE DID NOT SAY. You said it....and that frankly counts for shit.

He merely pointed out that "john" places the cleaning of the temple at the beginning of the ministry while all the others place it at the end.

Other than whine you have totally failed to explain the discrepancy which is, oddly, what Ehrman predicts from people like you based on his long experience teaching this shit.

I presented you with facts about days and positions of towns as they relate to each other in the passages that you stated, if you are not truthful with yourself about this info then you are the one in denial and are holding a belief in someone who has his own agenda, that agenda is to deceive as many people as possible so he want be lone in his beliefs. The info I gave you came from the scriptures that you presented if you want go and read those for yourself and see that I only gave true and honest facts then you should bow out of this conversation. You were the one who gave me those books to read and I did and if you can not stand criticism of your sacred books then stop calling me out, I listen to your hogwash all the time. As for giving me any acknowledgement I could not care less.

Ehrman's other books are a great read as well besides Jesus, Interrupted. Lost Christianities is a good read, but more scholarly and dense than Jesus, Interrupted.

I don't recommend Lost Scriptures though, but rather, get "The Other Bible". It's FAR more complete as far as extra-canonical scriptures go. However, I do recommend God's Problem. Elaine Pagels is a good read if you have interest in extra-cannoical texts. And if you like Ehrman's Biblical criticism, I highly recommend Thomas Paine's the Age of Reason and Examination of the Prophecies.

Ooh, thanks for bringing this back up, Skeptic. I missed G-C's pointless reply.

G-C - let's get something clear. Ehrman is a world class scholar and expert in ancient languages.

You are a guy who believes in a talking snake. The fact that you cannot understand Ehrman's point is not a surprise. My dog does not understand how my cell phone works, either.

The issue remains - in spite of your efforts to derail - that 3 authors place the cleaning of the temple at the END of their story while one author ( we do not know their real names ) puts it at the beginning.

You could walk from Timbuktu to Djakarta and name every fucking village along the way and it would do nothing to refute the point which Ehrman made. Your bible contradicts itself by putting two incompatible stories in and claiming that both are true.

I think I'll begin looking for another passage. You won't like this next one either.

Quote:Ehrman's other books are a great read as well besides Jesus, Interrupted. Lost Christianities is a good read, but more scholarly and dense than Jesus, Interrupted.

Lost Christianities is great. Misquoting Jesus was a bit technical but it got going at the end. Unfortunately, xtians get lost in that whole discussion of how the early copyists fucked up the whole damn thing. They HATE that.

(October 31, 2010 at 9:38 pm)Minimalist Wrote: Ooh, thanks for bringing this back up, Skeptic. I missed G-C's pointless reply.

G-C - let's get something clear. Ehrman is a world class scholar and expert in ancient languages.

You are a guy who believes in a talking snake. The fact that you cannot understand Ehrman's point is not a surprise. My dog does not understand how my cell phone works, either.

The issue remains - in spite of your efforts to derail - that 3 authors place the cleaning of the temple at the END of their story while one author ( we do not know their real names ) puts it at the beginning.

You could walk from Timbuktu to Djakarta and name every fucking village along the way and it would do nothing to refute the point which Ehrman made. Your bible contradicts itself by putting two incompatible stories in and claiming that both are true.

I think I'll begin looking for another passage. You won't like this next one either.

Quote:Ehrman's other books are a great read as well besides Jesus, Interrupted. Lost Christianities is a good read, but more scholarly and dense than Jesus, Interrupted.

Lost Christianities is great. Misquoting Jesus was a bit technical but it got going at the end. Unfortunately, xtians get lost in that whole discussion of how the early copyists fucked up the whole damn thing. They HATE that.

Like I said Min it does not matter where he put the event the important thing is he included the event, John never tried to give a chronological time line, his interest was to tell each event that was important in letting others know who the real Jesus is, why can't you get that through your thick head. Ehrman ignors this fact also, I do not care what kind of scholar he might be when he ignors the truth he becomes an unreliable source. Being intellegent has nothing to do with being honest, his agenda is to deceive and that is obvious when you read his work with an open mind to find the truth. Tell me Min if the copiest did such a poor job why is it that the book of Isaiah is word for word accurate after 1000 years between known copies, this knowledge tends to lean in favor of the copiest.
PS. there are many others who are experts in the ancient languages and they disagree with Ehrman, and they are no more biased than he is.

Bullshit. The stories are different. (let's leave out the fact that "john" drags the story out for 3 years while the others make it less than a year.

I'm sorry you cannot understand the simple contradiction but this really is your problem, not Ehrman's.

Moving on, as I guess G-C is off licking his wounds, we come to this little gem beginning on Page 26:

This is longer - sorry about that - I hope it does not tax xtian attention spans.

Quote:After the disciples eat the Passover meal they go out to the Garden of Gethsemane to pray. Judas Iscariot brings the troops and performs his act of betrayal. Jesus is taken to stand trial before the Jewish authorities. He spends the night in jail, and the next morning he is put on trial before the Roman governor, Pontius Pilate, who finds him guilty and condemns him to death by crucifixion. We are told that he is crucified that same day, at nine o’clock in the morning (Mark 15:25). Jesus, then, dies on the day of Passover, the morning after the Passover meal was eaten.

All this is clear and straightforward in Mark’s Gospel, but despite some basic similarities, it is at odds with the story told in the Gospel of John, which is also clear and straightforward. Here, too, Jesus goes to Jerusalem in the last week of his life to celebrate the Passover feast, and here, too, there is a last meal, a betrayal, a trial before Pilate, and the crucifixion. But it is striking that in John, at the beginning of the account, in contrast to Mark, the disciples do not ask Jesus where they are “to prepare the Passover.” Consequently, he gives them no instructions for preparing the meal. They do eat a final supper together, but in John, Jesus says nothing about the bread being his body or the cup representing his blood. Instead he washes the disciples’ feet, a story found in none of the other gospels (John 13:1–20).

After the meal they go out. Jesus is betrayed by Judas, appears before the Jewish authorities, spends the night in jail, and is put on trial before Pontius Pilate, who finds him guilty and condemns him to be crucified. And we are told exactly when Pilate pronounces the sentence: “It was the Day of Preparation for the Passover; and it was about noon” (John 19:14).

Noon? On the Day of Preparation for the Passover? The day the lambs were slaughtered? How can that be? In Mark’s Gospel, Jesus lived through that day, had his disciples prepare the Passover meal, and ate it with them before being arrested, taken to jail for the night, tried the next morning, and executed at nine o’clock A.M. on the Passover day. But not in John. In John, Jesus dies a day earlier, on the Day of Preparation for the Passover, sometime after noon.

I do not think this is a difference that can be reconciled. People over the years have tried, of course. Some have pointed out that Mark also indicates that Jesus died on a day that is called “the Day of Preparation” (Mark 15:42). That is absolutely true—but what these readers fail to notice is that Mark tells us what he means by this phrase: it is the Day of Preparation “for the Sabbath” (not the Day of Preparation for the Passover). In other words, in Mark, this is not the day before the Passover meal was eaten but the day before Sabbath; it is called the day of “preparation” because one had to prepare the meals for Saturday on Friday afternoon.

And so the contradiction stands: in Mark, Jesus eats the Passover meal (Thursday night) and is crucified the following morning. In John, Jesus does not eat the Passover meal but is crucified on the day before the Passover meal was to be eaten. Moreover, in Mark, Jesus is nailed to the cross at nine in the morning; in John, he is not condemned until noon, and then he is taken out and crucified.

Just another holy fuck-up, it seems.