There are a lot of inherent problems with Islam as the Johnny-come-lately to the party. It must appeal to the old prophets of the OT and to Jesus and yet claim that the established religions of Judaism and Christianity are corrupted and the later religion, Islam, has got it right. It also has the problem of explaining just where the heck was Allah the whole time that his favored people ran off the beaten path for a thousand years and the followers of Jesus for several hundred years after that.

One problem that is curious for me is how Muslims will say Jesus was a "great prophet". What do they mean by "great"?

If the Muslim story is true, it means that Jesus came to preach a message to the Jews and be the forerunner of Muhammad. He wrote nothing down about his teachings and, within a few years of flying into the sky, along comes Paul who tells everyone that Jesus is a higher god who must be prayed to for salvation. His followers then splinter off into many factions based on a variation of belief about the divinity of Jesus (all of which are incompatible with Islam). The final result is a group of Christians who worship Jesus as a god and refuse to recognize Muhammad, whom Jesus was supposed to be the forerunner of.

It would be hard for me to imagine a more epic failure as a prophet.

Say what you will about jesus....at least he isn't portrayed as fucking 9 year olds.

(December 7, 2010 at 2:03 pm)Minimalist Wrote: Say what you will about jesus....at least he isn't portrayed as fucking 9 year olds.

I guess we can add that to the list of Islamic practices he failed to establish.

(December 7, 2010 at 1:10 pm)DeistPaladin Wrote: There are a lot of inherent problems with Islam as the Johnny-come-lately to the party. It must appeal to the old prophets of the OT and to Jesus and yet claim that the established religions of Judaism and Christianity are corrupted and the later religion, Islam, has got it right. It also has the problem of explaining just where the heck was Allah the whole time that his favored people ran off the beaten path for a thousand years and the followers of Jesus for several hundred years after that.

This Johnny-come-lately argument for Islam doesn't mean that there is a problem with Islam itself. I think it's a derisive term with no significant value.

What was Allah doing all this time before He made Islam? I don't know, but remember that Allah works in mysterious ways. For example, maybe He was just fine-tuning the past religions as time went on. Eventually, He wanted to correct all the past religions by sending another prophet who would be able to deliver His last and final message to all mankind, without any corruption this time.

And why isn't that possible? Is it because it implies that God is not omnipotent?

On a second scenario, I've also heard the Imams saying that all the previous prophets were also teaching Islam, starting from Abraham to Muhammad (peace be upon them), but it's just that the previous religions were a corruption of God's true religion (which is Islam). So, maybe Islam is the first and last religion, not just the last religion as many people think it is. If that's the case, then the term "Johnny-come-lately" wouldn't be a suitable term for Islam, because this is the religion that was preached by all the prophets.

Also, Muslims don't need to say that Jesus was a "great" prophet, because all prophets are great anyways. We simply call them prophets, or messengers of God. And we are not supposed to over-praise any of the prophets because God is the greatest and He is the one who deserves all the praise, not the prophets. Even though all the prophets are great, Muslims believe that Muhammad was a greater prophet than Jesus because he is the seal of all the other prophets and there will be no other prophets after him.

As for Jesus being a failed prophet, it doesn't matter because he is still a prophet like all the other prophets.

On the day of resurrection, Jesus will get angry at the Christians and he will say to them (something like), "What?! When did I say that I am the son of God? When did I tell you to worship me? I never said that. Instead, my followers invented a lie against me! You should've listened to my successor, Muhammad (pbuh), the last messenger of God." Then the Christians will be ashamed of themselves.

Quote:For example, maybe He was just fine-tuning the past religions as time went on.

The way you people ( and I mean xtians and muslims ) carry on about god you'd think he could manage to get it right the first time.

Are you really sure you want to go down the road of portraying the 'creator of the universe' as a tinkering mechanic?

(December 8, 2010 at 1:04 am)Minimalist Wrote: Are you really sure you want to go down the road of portraying the 'creator of the universe' as a tinkering mechanic?

It's possible because sometimes the Creator likes to do things gradually and sometimes He likes to do them more quickly. His plans are too subtle for us to comprehend.

(December 8, 2010 at 1:19 am)Rayaan Wrote:

(December 8, 2010 at 1:04 am)Minimalist Wrote: Are you really sure you want to go down the road of portraying the 'creator of the universe' as a tinkering mechanic?

It's possible because sometimes the Creator likes to do things gradually and sometimes He likes to do them more quickly. His plans are too subtle for us to comprehend.

Perhaps he planned for you to be atheist but his plan is too subtle for you to comprehend.

Quote:It's possible because sometimes the Creator likes to do things gradually and sometimes He likes to do them more quickly. His plans are too subtle for us to comprehend.

Ah....and he told you this?

Perhaps you can tell me why Celsus, a second century Greco-Roman philosopher has a somewhat loftier view of 'god' than you do?

Quote:"God does not inflict correction on the world as if he were some unskilled laborer who is incapable of building something properly the first time around; God has no need to purify what he has built by means of a flood or a conflagration (as they teach)."

God is capable of getting it right the first time, but maybe He doesn't want to get it right the first time.

If He made everything right the first time, then everything would be perfect and the universe would be like a Heaven. And there wouldn't a lot of changes in the universe. And nobody would feel the need to pray to God or call Him if everything was perfect. So, maybe that's the reason why God allows imperfections to happen from time to time. And sometimes He even fixes them, if He wants to.

(December 8, 2010 at 2:41 am)Rayaan Wrote: God is capable of getting it right the first time, but maybe He doesn't want to get it right the first time.

If He made everything right the first time, then everything would be perfect and the universe would be like a Heaven. And there wouldn't a lot of changes in the universe. And nobody would feel the need to pray to God or call Him if everything was perfect. So, maybe that's the reason why God allows imperfections to happen from time to time. And sometimes He even fixes them, if He wants to.

Or maybe that convoluted infantile needy capricious domineering fool simply doesn't exist. The case is complete without assuming him.