Awesome. You're super cool.

(December 12, 2015 at 5:11 pm)Evie Wrote:

(December 12, 2015 at 5:07 pm)Amine Wrote: I do see what you're saying. Believing in determinism means acknowledging there are limitations. I don't try to do things that don't seem to be in my nature anymore, but maybe it would be better if I still did bang my head against that wall, in a sense.

Actually I don't think determinism limits matters at all... even in the slightest, even in a way of being realistic about your options. It merely makes your view of the world more correct.

You are still just as able to take gambles and acknowledge multiple possibilities. Yes ultimately there's only one possible future, but no one knows what that future is.... I agree with DD on one point here, the phrase "If determinism is true then the future is inevitable" makes no sense because if determinism is FALSE then the future is inevitable, too. It's a tautologically vacuous concept that "the future is inevitable". There's going to be a future, that's inevitable, regardless of if it is determined. What is not inevitable is any specific future imagined in the sense that we really don't know which conceivable future is in fact determined and does in fact lie ahead of us.

True, I think it is possible to still take risks as a determinist. In fact, a determinist better knows when to take them. But I'm not sure how you are getting the part about it not limiting being realistic about one's own options. Like, I pretty much know that I am going to like or hate certain things. If I believed in free will I might think I had the willpower to overcome that, but do I really?

Apologies, I forgot to reply to this post.

Amine Wrote:For sure, glad to find similar and provocative minds! I've never really used Skype. Maybe just PM or something?

That would be just fine. Please do.

And Skype is worth getting, even just for the instant messaging. I don't have a camera and I rarely use voice, it's mostly just IMing.

Quote:Haha yeah, she's my current go-to example of a ridiculously beautiful woman. I dunno if you ever saw the "Blurred Lines" music video, but she was the brunette from that. Protip: there is also a version where she is topless.

Ah that's where I've seen her... not a fan of the song or the vid but I might check out the topless version just to see her topless.

Quote:Not at all.

I see what you are saying about the fatalism, though. A lot of people hear about determinism and immediately think, "well then I would just stay on the couch all day", not understanding that deterministically, they would not actually want to do that.

Also, you hear this "choose to believe it" argument from Christians a lot. Recently some woman kept telling me I could just choose to believe in Jesus. I could only insist that if I did that, I would be lying.

I completely agree.

(December 12, 2015 at 5:20 pm)Amine Wrote: But I'm not sure how you are getting the part about it not limiting being realistic about one's own options. Like, I pretty much know that I am going to like or hate certain things. If I believed in free will I might think I had the willpower to overcome that, but do I really?

Well it doesn't limit any real options. It may limit you from trying to do things that you thought were options but are actually impossible and not real options. But that's not really limiting you, because you couldn't do those things anyway.

(December 12, 2015 at 5:28 pm)Evie Wrote:

(December 12, 2015 at 5:20 pm)Amine Wrote: But I'm not sure how you are getting the part about it not limiting being realistic about one's own options. Like, I pretty much know that I am going to like or hate certain things. If I believed in free will I might think I had the willpower to overcome that, but do I really?

Well it doesn't limit any real options. It may limit you from trying to do things that you thought were options but are actually impossible and not real options. But that's not really limiting you, because you couldn't do those things anyway.

Ah yes I see. We were looking at it from different levels. I'll drop you a PM sooner or later. Or maybe Skype. I dunno. Phones and video chat always feel awkward to me lol.

I don't have video. And we don't have to do voice at all, I rarely do. I almost always use it to IM.

I was just thinking about it and realized that the limitations of determinism not only have important implications for oneself but also the way one sees others. People almost definitely won't act out of character, even if they swear they will change or commit or whatever. They can even mean it. Many a person has suffered through gay conversion therapy for this delusion.

It's not that I don't think people can change in certain ways. But determinism means having realistic expectations. It will be gradual and not terribly drastic.

(December 12, 2015 at 4:12 pm)Evie Wrote:

(December 12, 2015 at 3:59 pm)Shining_Finger Wrote: If I didn't believe in free will, that could fairly easily lead to a Rabbit Hole where I don't make the right choice because I don't think I can. 

Disbelieving in free will won't logically make you a fatalist.

I think you are misinterpreting what I am saying. 
Anyways, I am open to the POSSIBILITY that Free Will doesn't exist, which is large. 
But as far as I am going to do things, I am going to continue to make my decisions on the basis free will exists. 
I mean, doesn't the absence of free will invalidate the OP saying evil does not exist? 
If a person has been raised a certain way, they certainly have to make certain choices and thus can be "evil." Anyways, these logical loops are boring.