(January 10, 2016 at 7:38 pm)*Deidre* Wrote: The important thing that sometimes gets lost in these discussions, and news stories is that even though she ''voluntarily'' went into the shower with the guy, I'd like to believe that most guys (guys I know at least and on this site, for example) would not have raped her. The supposition that well, she shouldn't have been there in the first place, places an unfair mark on men in general, that if given the opportunity 'most' men would commit rape, and that is also a grossly erroneous view to take. People always have options, and when in doubt, do the right thing. She should have been more prudent, most definitely, but her lack of prudence, doesn't give someone the license to commit a crime.

Yes, but there is something we are missing here. Most of the time you have sex with someone, there is no pause where your like " Okay, do you agree to vaginal intercourse?" No most of the time you express consent via actions. Now for most of us this is not really a problem, because it usually pretty clear by time you get your clothes off if someone wants it or not.
Now maybe I'm a barbaric troglodyte, but if a girl invites me into the shower with her, and then starts kissing in the shower, I'm going to take that as a pretty clear sign of "I wonna fuck". Now obviously if she says stop, you stop. Unfortunately that is easier said then done. But given all of the details here it is suspicious if she actually said stop at all. Unfortunately a rape kit can not really distinguish between very vigorous sex and rape. So all we have is her word, and elements of her story seem very outlandish.
Thankfully 99.9% of rape cases are not like this, but I worry if stories like this will make it harder to take rape victims seriously.

(January 10, 2016 at 6:12 pm)Jenny A Wrote: MTL,

I can play the rape victim card too.  So? It gives neither of us more authority any more than mugging victims have more authority about mugging, which is against the law. Please don't enter a bad neighborhood late at night looking prosperous and carrying cash. If you do, don't follow a young man into an alley,  and don't flash your cash. I'd still want to jail the guy who robs you, but I wouldn’t make you a poster child for educating people so they won't rob others.

Jenny,

I don't think you read my entire post.

I weighed in as a rape victim, so, in part, I could say the exact same thing you just said:

Encouraging young women to be street-smart and wise and keep themselves safe
doesn't mean I'm blaming them for the rape.

(January 10, 2016 at 7:47 pm)Irrational Wrote:

(January 10, 2016 at 7:34 pm)Chad32 Wrote: I'm just trying to say that if you don't want to have sex, don't do anything sexual. don't make out. Don't feel each other up. I know it's fun to experiment, but being hopped up on hormones is as bad as being hopped up on any other intoxicant. It keeps people from thinking straight. You can put him in jail, but if all you're going to do is give her a hug and hope it doesn't happen again, you're not really taking preventative measures. And since apparently this has happened before, it seems like she needs to be taught something about how to keep it from happening again.

You can take preventative measures without having to resort to lecturing. For me, lecturing means pretty much rebuking the person rather than showing understanding and support. If that's not what you meant, then we agree.

Maybe lecture isn't the right word. But basically a discussion about what went wrong, and what she could do to prevent this from happening for the fifth time, or whatever.

(January 10, 2016 at 7:34 pm)Chad32 Wrote: I'm just trying to say that if you don't want to have sex, don't do anything sexual. don't make out. Don't feel each other up. I know it's fun to experiment, but being hopped up on hormones is as bad as being hopped up on any other intoxicant. It keeps people from thinking straight. You can put him in jail, but if all you're going to do is give her a hug and hope it doesn't happen again, you're not really taking preventative measures. And since apparently this has happened before, it seems like she needs to be taught something about how to keep it from happening again.

What? So a person shouldn't go to second base unless they intend on having intercourse? 

On your second part, I agree. Obviously people need to be smart and careful in their actions. I did object to you saying she shouldn't be upset about getting raped, since she kissed/showered with him. And I did object to you comparing rape to a traffic accident.

(January 10, 2016 at 7:46 pm)Evie Wrote:

(January 10, 2016 at 7:17 pm)Chad32 Wrote: Neither does stepping into the shower with a guy, and kissing him.

Point is you can change your mind even halfway through sex and ask the guy to stop, and whether he's drunk or not or you're stupid for having sex with him or not, if he doesn't stop it's rape. And the rapist is to blame, not the victim.

I never claimed it didn't still count as rape. I'm just saying it's hard to come to a complete stop after that, and if there's a point where you intend to draw the line, you'd better be doing it with someone who has practiced safe-words, or something.

(January 10, 2016 at 7:52 pm)Catholic_Lady Wrote:

(January 10, 2016 at 7:34 pm)Chad32 Wrote: I'm just trying to say that if you don't want to have sex, don't do anything sexual. don't make out. Don't feel each other up. I know it's fun to experiment, but being hopped up on hormones is as bad as being hopped up on any other intoxicant. It keeps people from thinking straight. You can put him in jail, but if all you're going to do is give her a hug and hope it doesn't happen again, you're not really taking preventative measures. And since apparently this has happened before, it seems like she needs to be taught something about how to keep it from happening again.

What? So a person shouldn't go to second base unless they intend on having intercourse? 

On your second part, I agree. Obviously people need to be smart and careful in their actions. I did object to you saying she shouldn't be upset about getting raped, since she kissed/showered with him. And I did object to you comparing rape to a traffic accident.

Yeah. Unless you're with someone who is well practced at stopping themselves, by using a safe word or something similar, then you probably shouldn't start running for second base unless you intend to bring it home. Because sometimes it leads to things going wrong.

(January 10, 2016 at 7:50 pm)MTL Wrote:

(January 10, 2016 at 6:12 pm)Jenny A Wrote: MTL,

I can play the rape victim card too.  So? It gives neither of us more authority any more than mugging victims have more authority about mugging, which is against the law. Please don't enter a bad neighborhood late at night looking prosperous and carrying cash. If you do, don't follow a young man into an alley,  and don't flash your cash. I'd still want to jail the guy who robs you, but I wouldn’t make you a poster child for educating people so they won't rob others.

Jenny,

I don't think you read my entire post.

I weighed in as a rape victim, so, in part, I could say the exact same thing you just said:

Encouraging young women to be street-smart and wise and keep themselves safe
doesn't mean I'm blaming them for the rape.

Not the way I read it but I agree.  Rape is rape,  but playing it safe is a damnedgood idea.

(January 10, 2016 at 7:34 pm)Chad32 Wrote: I'm just trying to say that if you don't want to have sex, don't do anything sexual. don't make out. Don't feel each other up. I know it's fun to experiment, but being hopped up on hormones is as bad as being hopped up on any other intoxicant. It keeps people from thinking straight.

Chad, that is ridiculous.

That means there is no more "going slowly" in a new relationship:

"Sorry, I know this is our fifth date and I haven't even kissed you, yet,
but I don't want to do ANYTHING even remotely sexual until I'm sure I want to have intercourse with you. "

Like, what???

Part of how you figure out whether or not you want to go further is by going slowly.

I've dated guys who don't always stop when they're told to stop.

But I've dated more guys who have no problem controlling themselves and being gentlemen and stopping when appropriate....if for no other reason than that they are not apes and understand consequences and don't want a record or prison time.

What you're saying is tantamount to victim blame, even if the guy goes to jail.

Sorry girls, you're not allowed to kiss your boyfriends at all, anymore,
because then you will be expected to put out,
and if you get raped, you asked for it.

What utter, utter nonsense.

Maybe you should just move to Afghanistan and be done with it...
women there are expected to keep their sexuality COMPLETELY under wraps,
lest they tempt a man to rape them...

...and even then, the woman will be stoned to death for the crime of being a rape victim,
because it was her fault,
walking around all saucy in that sexy sexy burqa, after all...


Sheesh.

(January 10, 2016 at 7:54 pm)Chad32 Wrote: I never claimed it didn't still count as rape.

It's okay I never claimed you did either.

Damn that's at least the second time that that's happened. I should stay out of this thread I suck at this

I haven't claimed anyone has claimed anything.

Quote:I'm just saying it's hard to come to a complete stop after that, and if there's a point where you intend to draw the line, you'd better be doing it with someone who has practiced safe-words, or something.

Whether it's hard to come to a complete stop or not, if someone is having sex with someone else, and they're asked to stop and they don't stop, that's unacceptable and rape.

Yes safewords is different but that's still just another way of saying "stop". Point is that whether it's hard to come to a complete stop or not, if one has been asked to stop, either with a clear "stop", a "no" (or something similar) or a safeword, stop=stop, consent=consent, rape=rape.

(January 10, 2016 at 8:03 pm)Evie Wrote:

(January 10, 2016 at 7:54 pm)Chad32 Wrote: I never claimed it didn't still count as rape.

It's okay I never claimed you did either.

Damn that's at least the second time that that's happened. I should stay out of this thread I suck at this

I haven't claimed anyone has claimed anything.

Quote:I'm just saying it's hard to come to a complete stop after that, and if there's a point where you intend to draw the line, you'd better be doing it with someone who has practiced safe-words, or something.

Whether it's hard to come to a complete stop or not, if someone is having sex with someone else, and they're asked to stop and they don't stop, that's unacceptable and rape.

Yes safewords is different but that's still just another way of saying "stop". Point is that whether it's hard to come to a complete stop or not, if one has been asked to stop, either with a clear "stop", a "no" (or something similar) or a safeword, stop=stop, consent=consent, rape=rape.

evie, don't apologize, please, honey.  You've not said anything amiss here.