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Cultural Appropriation
#81
RE: Cultural Appropriation
From a "taking the piss" point of view, I get it. That's offensive. Blackface, exaggerated accents and the like would probably come under "taking the piss".

I don't agree with the argument that culture is something you can steal, which is what seems to be the gripe of a lot of Tumblrinas squealing over "cultural appropriation". If you take anything "ethnic", let's say dreadlocks for example because they're the first thing that comes to my mind, unless I physically snatch the dreads off your head and put them on mine, nothing has been stolen. Just because someone is doing something that originates in "your culture", that doesn't suddenly mean you can't do it anymore. Nothing has been stolen, culture isn't a finite resource.

I also find there's something racist in itself of trying to claim that every "cultural" thing a brown person does has deep spiritual significance. First off not all people of colour are religious. LOTS of black people wear certain natural hairstyles purely for aesthetic/fashion reasons, and there is a massive fashion industry made out of bejewelled bindis within India. It's hypocritical going off on a white girl for wearing henna and a bindi "for a fashion statement", when there are millions of people within said cultures who do it as a fashion statement already. You can't get mad at Becky for wearing African braids "for fashion" when Rihanna did exactly the same thing.
"Adulthood is like looking both ways before you cross the road, and then getting hit by an airplane"  - sarcasm_only

"Ironically like the nativist far-Right, which despises multiculturalism, but benefits from its ideas of difference to scapegoat the other and to promote its own white identity politics; these postmodernists, leftists, feminists and liberals also use multiculturalism, to side with the oppressor, by demanding respect and tolerance for oppression characterised as 'difference', no matter how intolerable."
- Maryam Namazie

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#82
RE: Cultural Appropriation
(January 25, 2016 at 3:07 am)Lemonvariable72 Wrote:
(January 25, 2016 at 12:23 am)Aegon Wrote: EDIT: FUCK this website hates me. This is freaking out. Now the eighth page "does not exist" and it threw off my formatting...not to mention I've had to resubmit this five times for it to work.


Why should I have to be black to point out something racist against blacks (as an example)? As for the natives: white people will listen to other white people before they listen to minority groups. Mostly because a person wearing blackface probably knows it's offensive to a black person, but it would be other white people who would not only condone the blackface but possible approve of it and find humor in it. Having the people you look to "impress" say that it isn't okay would be the more powerful message in the end. But it's not like native peoples today are silent on the subject. Hell, this isn't even a recent thing. Well-known native scholars like Charles Eastman and Arthur C. Parker spoke on the issue and the idea that society needs to move away from the stereotypical image of American Indians as early as the beginning of the 20th century. And what do you mean "why is it offensive that I enjoy aspects of other cultures"? Are we still talking about the examples I used? Reread the post you quoted and tell me how you could construed that as a person innocently enjoying another culture. It's one thing to listen to jazz music made by black artists in the earlier part of the 20th century. It's another to dress up in a racist costume. Why do I have to explain that?

How do we determine what is and is not cultural appropriation? How is it different than any other offensive form of discrimination? Look at something you think might be cultural appropriation. Does it follow the definition of "perpetuating a cultural stereotype that is offensive to the members of that culture and is harmful to the overall image of the culture today"? Then congrats, you spotted it! It's no different than determining what is or is not racist. This is not a problem with the concept.

So now you get to pick for other cultures what is and isn't a offensive stereotype? What about the intent of the portrayer? What if I dress up as little Wayne or any black rapper because I relate with them and there music? Why do you think that you can't relate because they're a different race, isn't that racist in and of itself? Because someone is white they can't feel oppressed? Do you read what you write here? Its so faux progressive and divisive.
Edit: oh BTW your inference that I'm racist because I'm white and white people don't listen to natives, is racist. So noted.

What?! When did I say I was the one choosing. I said, in that post, that minority groups are not silent on this matter. The white people advocating for this sort of thing are just helping their voices be heard. When you talk about dressing like Lil Wayne, does that imply you'll be painting yourself black? Otherwise, I don't think Lil Wayne really dresses in a particular way. His usual outfit is a plain white T-shirt and baggy jeans. If you want to dress up as a generic hip hop artist then all the power to you. You'll wind up looking like Machine Gun Kelly. But you must know that painting your face black and wearing a grill would make it racist, right? Blackface has a very negative history in the United States. I know it's not looked down upon nearly as much in some European countries. Also, when the hell did I say white people can't be oppressed? In my first response I used German culture as an example. Are Germanic peoples not white?

I never inferred that you were racist nor did I infer that you personally wouldn't listen to natives because you're white. I'm saying that native people have discussed this topic FOR NEARLY A GODDAMN CENTURY and it only picked up steam when other white people voiced their concerns. I'm talking about us (I'm white too if you were wondering) as a group. But according to the first part of your response, you would have no problem dressing up as somebody else's culture...regardless of your reasons, you seem to be willing to do the opposite of the wishes of Native American scholars today and in the past. So it seems you don't listen to natives anyway.
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#83
RE: Cultural Appropriation
Wear and do whatever makes you fucking happy, and screw all these SJW cunts moaning about "cultural appropriation". They can go fuck themselves in all orifices with a cactus and return to Tumblr afterwards.
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#84
RE: Cultural Appropriation
I can understand where a lot of the outcry about it comes from, but, quite frankly I don't buy into the assumption that it's inherently wrong.

Here's one clip from Jim Jarmusch's "Coffee and Cigarettes" that may be relevant. In this segment, Steve Buscemi plays an Elvis-loving waiter in Memphis. Joie and Cinque Lee play twins who hate Elvis for reasons that boil down to concerns about cultural appropriation.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4D5hj_RIbRo

One major point they raised was that Elvis took most of his most famous early songs from marginalised black musicians, buying their rights for a song (pun intended) and getting rich off the profits that should have belonged to them. Fair enough; granted, given Col. Tom Parker's very unscrupulous business dealings, that part of the transaction may be his fault, but that's not my big problem with this line of logic. Simply put: without Elvis making their songs, and, by extension, their music popular with White people, do you really think those artists would be enough of a blip on the musical radar to justify all the complaining about how they got a raw deal?

Also, the Elvis quote they mentioned isn't real.

Really, the whole furor is counterproductive. I remember reading an article (I think this was it) written by a black woman complaining about the fact that, while people did not approve of her putting her hair in cornrows, it was seen as okay for her white coworkers to do. This would be a legitimate complaint, except she decided to focus her anger not on the people in power who stigmatised her hair, but the white people who liked it enough to want to copy it.

Really, people have been pretty much lifting aspects of other cultures they find appealing for as long as people have been aware of other cultures. It's pretty much inevitable. And given that some Tumblrinas consider virtually everything from another culture to be cultural appropriation, it becomes counterproductive to the point that at times, one seriously wonders if, from their point of view, there's any point in trying to NOT be racist. Especially not helped by this incident or Tumblrinas like CurvesinColor, who has reached the point where she allies herself with white supremacists.

The solution: like whatever you want to like and don't let some jackass who's offended by everything under the sun stop you.
Comparing the Universal Oneness of All Life to Yo Mama since 2010.

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I was born with the gift of laughter and a sense the world is mad.
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#85
RE: Cultural Appropriation
The problem is lumping the more extreme views on the subject held by "Tumblrinas" with what I've been talking about. There's a difference between expressing yourself and being a dickhead, and it's a clearer distinction than it seems. The reason I've been talking about Halloween costumes as examples is because that is the major talking point. The whole "My Culture is Not a Trend" movement. You don't need to agree with overly political correct Tumblr feminists to realize that the examples I've given can be extremely racist or offensive to those groups. Native Americans have attempted to move away from their stereotypical image for over a century...which is why white people taking that part of their culture and abusing it is offensive and harmful.

I am not someone who is overly political correct. Hell, the political correctness present in most U.S. media outlets is part of the reason I refer to myself as a moderate Democrat instead of a full-fledged liberal. If you read my thread on ISIS being Islamic, you know I'm not on that side. But I can't help but feel like some people hate the idea of political correctness because it hurts their ability to be a dick or be racist without much consequence. And that's the case here. It's not about trying to protect every person's feelings and sheltering them. It's about not being an ass. Plain and simple.
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#86
RE: Cultural Appropriation
(January 26, 2016 at 3:12 pm)Aegon Wrote: The problem is lumping the more extreme views on the subject held by "Tumblrinas" with what I've been talking about. There's a difference between expressing yourself and being a dickhead, and it's a clearer distinction than it seems. The reason I've been talking about Halloween costumes as examples is because that is the major talking point. The whole "My Culture is Not a Trend" movement. You don't need to agree with overly political correct Tumblr feminists to realize that the examples I've given can be extremely racist or offensive to those groups. Native Americans have attempted to move away from their stereotypical image for over a century...which is why white people taking that part of their culture and abusing it is offensive and harmful.

I am not someone who is overly political correct. Hell, the political correctness present in most U.S. media outlets is part of the reason I refer to myself as a moderate Democrat instead of a full-fledged liberal. If you read my thread on ISIS being Islamic, you know I'm not on that side. But I can't help but feel like some people hate the idea of political correctness because it hurts their ability to be a dick or be racist without much consequence. And that's the case here. It's not about trying to protect every person's feelings and sheltering them. It's about not being an ass. Plain and simple.

Me too.

(As in, I agree with pretty much all of this.  Why's everyone so afraid of looking at things on a case-by-case basis, of saying "X" is bad sometimes and good sometimes and it depends on the situation?)
How will we know, when the morning comes, we are still human? - 2D

Don't worry, my friend.  If this be the end, then so shall it be.
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#87
RE: Cultural Appropriation
(January 26, 2016 at 3:12 pm)Aegon Wrote: But I can't help but feel like some people hate the idea of political correctness because it hurts their ability to be a dick or be racist without much consequence. And that's the case here.

You have the right to your own opinions, but not to your own facts. The idea that you can say why perfect strangers feel a certain way about a certain topic is silly on its face.

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#88
RE: Cultural Appropriation
(January 25, 2016 at 5:54 pm)Aegon Wrote:
(January 25, 2016 at 3:07 am)Lemonvariable72 Wrote: So now you get to pick for other cultures what is and isn't a offensive stereotype? What about the intent of the portrayer? What if I dress up as little Wayne or any black rapper because I relate with them and there music? Why do you think that you can't relate because they're a different race, isn't that racist in and of itself? Because someone is white they can't feel oppressed? Do you read what you write here? Its so faux progressive and divisive.
Edit: oh BTW your inference that I'm racist because I'm white and white people don't listen to natives, is racist. So noted.

What?! When did I say I was the one choosing. I said, in that post, that minority groups are not silent on this matter. The white people advocating for this sort of thing are just helping their voices be heard. When you talk about dressing like Lil Wayne, does that imply you'll be painting yourself black? Otherwise, I don't think Lil Wayne really dresses in a particular way. His usual outfit is a plain white T-shirt and baggy jeans. If you want to dress up as a generic hip hop artist then all the power to you. You'll wind up looking like Machine Gun Kelly. But you must know that painting your face black and wearing a grill would make it racist, right? Blackface has a very negative history in the United States. I know it's not looked down upon nearly as much in some European countries. Also, when the hell did I say white people can't be oppressed? In my first response I used German culture as an example. Are Germanic peoples not white?

I never inferred that you were racist nor did I infer that you personally wouldn't listen to natives because you're white. I'm saying that native people have discussed this topic FOR NEARLY A GODDAMN CENTURY and it only picked up steam when other white people voiced their concerns. I'm talking about us (I'm white too if you were wondering) as a group. But according to the first part of your response, you would have no problem dressing up as somebody else's culture...regardless of your reasons, you seem to be willing to do the opposite of the wishes of Native American scholars today and in the past. So it seems you don't listen to natives anyway.

I'm not advocating dressing up in blackface, if that is what your thinking. I'm advocating the idea of cultural appropriation because it is inherently divisive, and at its core racist in and of itself. Blackface isn't racist because its "cultural appropiation, it's racist because of it's long historical usage in north america, making it symbolic of a time when racism was so prevalent that they wouldn't cast black actors. The other example you cite is using traditional native garb for halloween. I would say that hugely depends on the intent of the wearer, because it could easily be paying homage to rich and ancient culture, or even more simply as a way of exploring said culture. A culture that is only now being revitalized in many places. So yes, I am for dressing as things from other cultures and agianst bleading "Cultural Appropriation!" even if only because when you get down to it, freedom of expression is a far more important right then the right not to be offended. I would also argue that the greater respect for native communites now has nothing to do with sjw's or white people lending their voice, but instead the much greater assertiveness in natives standing up for their own rights. But the situation may be different in the U.S.
To-morrow, and to-morrow, and to-morrow,
Creeps in this petty pace from day to day,
To the last syllable of recorded time;
And all our yesterdays have lighted fools
The way to dusty death. Out, out, brief candle!
Life's but a walking shadow, a poor player,
That struts and frets his hour upon the stage,
And then is heard no more. It is a tale
Told by an idiot, full of sound and fury,
Signifying nothing.
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#89
RE: Cultural Appropriation
(January 26, 2016 at 3:28 pm)Thumpalumpacus Wrote:
(January 26, 2016 at 3:12 pm)Aegon Wrote: But I can't help but feel like some people hate the idea of political correctness because it hurts their ability to be a dick or be racist without much consequence. And that's the case here.

You have the right to your own opinions, but not to your own facts. The idea that you can say why perfect strangers feel a certain way about a certain topic is silly on its face.

Yet majority of members here do that with religious people every day...

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I'm not sure what you mean, to be honest. Are you saying the line you quoted isn't true? Because I'd direct you to the majority of Donald Trump supporters as evidence.
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#90
RE: Cultural Appropriation
With Halloween costumes, I just don't understand the fascination of going as "another culture". Although I can see why it's offensive, for me it's more I just don't understand the "why".

Halloween is that one time of year you can get so crazy and creative and go as literally anything you want to, and you turn up in... a cheap "sexy Indian girl" costume straight out the bag from the local pound shop? Make an effort...
"Adulthood is like looking both ways before you cross the road, and then getting hit by an airplane"  - sarcasm_only

"Ironically like the nativist far-Right, which despises multiculturalism, but benefits from its ideas of difference to scapegoat the other and to promote its own white identity politics; these postmodernists, leftists, feminists and liberals also use multiculturalism, to side with the oppressor, by demanding respect and tolerance for oppression characterised as 'difference', no matter how intolerable."
- Maryam Namazie

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