(February 1, 2016 at 7:09 am)Excited Penguin Wrote: It's not as simple as that. The choice is not between restricting freedom of thought and letting people believe in a fairytale. Why are you making it so black and white?

That was a suggestion. Unless it involves you in some way, let people do what they will.

(February 1, 2016 at 7:04 am)Emjay Wrote: I am an antitheist inasmuch as I wish it (Christianity) had never existed for all the damage it's done, cumulatively, to the world over centuries of cruelty and impeded scientific progress, all caused by meddling. So yeah, I would prefer that people did not believe in it because in most cases it seems that meddling is inextricably linked to it. But as far as they are not meddling, I can and do hope that they will 'see the light' someday and become atheists - my dad for instance - but it has to come in their own time, if at all, because people only change when they are ready, in themselves, to change. Just as someone telling me to quit smoking will not work until I'm receptive to the idea. So change comes from within, not without. Or at least real, lasting change. But in my dad's case I very much doubt that he will ever become an atheist, and though I wish that weren't the case, I do accept it and don't fight it (any more) and I think if he got ill I would not want to deprive him of the comfort he gets from it, even if I see it as a delusion, and so wouldn't rock the boat.

Smoking is not exactly the same as believing untrue things about the world. Come on now... I smoke as well. I only feel guilty about it to the extent that I pollute the air and sometimes let other people experience second-hand smoke. It's also bad for me. I have to deal with that. I don't think its quite the same however as religion. It might be in the same league, if you look at it from a certain perspective, but it's a lot less harmful, like a lot.

(February 1, 2016 at 7:16 am)SteelCurtain Wrote:

(February 1, 2016 at 7:09 am)Excited Penguin Wrote: It's not as simple as that. The choice is not between restricting freedom of thought and letting people believe in a fairytale. Why are you making it so black and white?

That was a suggestion. Unless it involves you in some way, let people do what they will.

It does involve you. It would involve you even if all of us were atheists and only one of us was a theist. So you're not getting out of it as easily as that.

Yes, it involves me in a meta sort of 'everything is connected' sort of way, if you'd like to be dense.

A person's personal belief does not involve me unless they try to enact it into law or use it to cause harm to me or my family.

(February 1, 2016 at 7:17 am)Excited Penguin Wrote:

(February 1, 2016 at 7:04 am)Emjay Wrote: I am an antitheist inasmuch as I wish it (Christianity) had never existed for all the damage it's done, cumulatively, to the world over centuries of cruelty and impeded scientific progress, all caused by meddling. So yeah, I would prefer that people did not believe in it because in most cases it seems that meddling is inextricably linked to it. But as far as they are not meddling, I can and do hope that they will 'see the light' someday and become atheists - my dad for instance - but it has to come in their own time, if at all, because people only change when they are ready, in themselves, to change. Just as someone telling me to quit smoking will not work until I'm receptive to the idea. So change comes from within, not without. Or at least real, lasting change. But in my dad's case I very much doubt that he will ever become an atheist, and though I wish that weren't the case, I do accept it and don't fight it (any more) and I think if he got ill I would not want to deprive him of the comfort he gets from it, even if I see it as a delusion, and so wouldn't rock the boat.

Smoking is not exactly the same as believing untrue things about the world. Come on now... I smoke as well. I only feel guilty about it to the extent that I pollute the air and sometimes let other people experience second-hand smoke. It's also bad for me. I have to deal with that. I don't think its quite the same however as religion. It might be in the same league, if you look at it from a certain perspective, but it's a lot less harmful, like a lot.

Yeah I know, but it was just an example of how people respond to attempts from outside to change them. But smoking is a delusion... no-one would rationally decide to stick a bunch of burning leaves in their mouth and puff. But in the terms that I've put it, it's an example of a non-meddling delusion - in the sense that it's a personal delusion that does not for the most part affect others - so yeah, not like Christianity which is a meddling delusion.

(February 1, 2016 at 7:29 am)SteelCurtain Wrote: Yes, it involves me in a meta sort of 'everything is connected' sort of way, if you'd like to be dense.

A person's personal belief does not involve me unless they try to enact it into law or use it to cause harm to me or my family.

I'm the one being dense... Seriously?!

You just admitted that it does involve you. You can't have it both ways. As long as that person's personal belief is wrong you have to do everything within your power to correct it. It's your unspoken duty as a citizen of the world. It certainly does involve you, especially when so many people hold incorrect beliefs. Wherever it gets as clear-cut as you're trying to make it seem you act accordingly. Otherwise, you rely upon your power of persuasion to change people's minds about it, within the confines of the law and what is ethically acceptable.

I'm sure we, as self-identified rationalists, also have some beliefs that need challenging(or at least some of us do, even if maybe to a lesser extent than a religious person would). Smoking is a good example of that. But there are countless others.

Is smoking a belief then?

(February 1, 2016 at 7:41 am)Mancunian Wrote: Is smoking a belief then?

No, I obviously misspoke there. I trust you to get what I meant anyway.

Let's call it an unjustifiable action. It needs to be challenged all the same. I don't think it's as urgent or as significant as religious belief, however.

(February 1, 2016 at 7:34 am)Excited Penguin Wrote:

(February 1, 2016 at 7:29 am)SteelCurtain Wrote: Yes, it involves me in a meta sort of 'everything is connected' sort of way, if you'd like to be dense.

A person's personal belief does not involve me unless they try to enact it into law or use it to cause harm to me or my family.

I'm the one being dense... Seriously?!

You just admitted that it does involve you. You can't have it both ways. As long as that person's personal belief is wrong you have to do everything within your power to correct it. It's your unspoken duty as a citizen of the world. It certainly does involve you, especially when so many people hold incorrect beliefs. Wherever it gets as clear-cut as you're trying to make it seem you act accordingly. Otherwise, you rely upon your power of persuasion to change people's minds about it, within the confines of the law and what is ethically acceptable.

I was conceding that point for argument's sake. Come, now.

I don't have a duty to correct anyone. In fact, I consider it my duty as a citizen of a pluralistic society to protect the rights of people to do, think, and believe as they wish so long as it doesn't harm others in a real way. My duty, as I perceive it, is the exact opposite of your duty, as you perceive it.