Religion, or more specifically, the religious doctrine of salvation, is, in its simplest form, a contract. A contract is simply an agreement between two parties. In the Christian doctrine of salvation, the two parties to the agreement are: the Christian God, the “savior”, and a person, the “saved”. The basic premise of any contract is that one party will agree to perform some service or benefit if certain conditions are met by the other party. For example, a homeowner hires a company to install new kitchen cabinets in her house. In exchange for the company supplying and installing cabinets, the homeowner will pay an agreed sum of money. In the Christian savior/saved contract, one party, the person who wishes to be saved, i.e. enter heaven, must agree to believe in the Christian God, and more specifically, must accept Jesus Christ as their “personal lord and savior”. The other party, God, agrees to perform the service of salvation, upon the death of the person in question, assuming said person had met the conditions spelled out (belief and acceptance).

Typically, the parties who enter into a contract know at least a little something about each other. Going back to the kitchen cabinet example, the homeowner probably did a little research, and chose a reputable company to do the work. The company also did a little research on the homeowner, qualifying her ability to come up with the money (and most likely required the homeowner to put up a significant deposit before even beginning any work).

The problem with the Christian savior/saved contract is that one party, the person who wishes to be saved, knows absolutely nothing about the other party, the Christian God. In fact, they don’t even know if the God exists. At the very best, they have some faith that the Christian God exists, but only because other people (who have no such knowledge themselves) have told them that God exists, and that He is willing to offer these contracts. This means that a person (“Christian”) is entering into a contract, and living their life attempting to fulfill their contractual obligations, based purely upon hearsay.

(February 22, 2011 at 10:59 am)Strongbad Wrote: In the Christian savior/saved contract, one party, the person who wishes to be saved, i.e. enter heaven, must agree to believe in the Christian God, and more specifically, must accept Jesus Christ as their “personal lord and savior”. The other party, God, agrees to perform the service of salvation, upon the death of the person in question, assuming said person had met the conditions spelled out (belief and acceptance).

I'm not sure this is an accurate representation of current Christian theology, at least not Protestantism. Salvation isn't "earned" but bestowed upon one by the Grace of God, freely given by him, according to the five Solas of reformation Christianity (specifically Sola gratia ("by grace alone")).

(February 22, 2011 at 2:17 pm)apophenia Wrote: I'm not sure this is an accurate representation of current Christian theology, at least not Protestantism. Salvation isn't "earned" but bestowed upon one by the Grace of God, freely given by him, according to the five Solas of reformation Christianity (specifically Sola gratia ("by grace alone")).

You are correct in observing that varying sects of Christianity have differing views on the attainment of salvation. However, the main tenet in all of Christianity is that belief in and acceptance of Jesus Christ is a prerequisite to salvation. From Wikipedia:

Quote:Christian salvation in the general Western-centric Christian concept is the acceptance of the Lord Jesus the Christ as one's personal Savior and acceptance that Christ Jesus gave up his mortal life for one's individual sins in the belief of an eternal resurrection. While various Christian denominations will debate Christian theology and specifics, individual acknowledgement and acceptance of Christ as one's personal Savior is generally mandated or defined as the "key" to Christian salvation.

(bolding mine)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_salvation

Again, if party A (Christian person wanting salvation) meets certain conditions (belief and acceptance), then party B (Christian God) will perform a benefit (salvation) = contract.

And, you have missed the point of discussion completely: that irrespective of varying beliefs regarding salvation, ALL of the beliefs that form the basis of the contract are based completely upon hearsay.

(February 22, 2011 at 3:56 pm)Strongbad Wrote:

(February 22, 2011 at 2:17 pm)apophenia Wrote: I'm not sure this is an accurate representation of current Christian theology, at least not Protestantism. Salvation isn't "earned" but bestowed upon one by the Grace of God, freely given by him, according to the five Solas of reformation Christianity (specifically Sola gratia ("by grace alone")).

You are correct in observing that varying sects of Christianity have differing views on the attainment of salvation. However, the main tenet in all of Christianity is that belief in and acceptance of Jesus Christ is a prerequisite to salvation. From Wikipedia:

Quote:Christian salvation in the general Western-centric Christian concept is the acceptance of the Lord Jesus the Christ as one's personal Savior and acceptance that Christ Jesus gave up his mortal life for one's individual sins in the belief of an eternal resurrection. While various Christian denominations will debate Christian theology and specifics, individual acknowledgement and acceptance of Christ as one's personal Savior is generally mandated or defined as the "key" to Christian salvation.

(bolding mine)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_salvation

Again, if party A (Christian person wanting salvation) meets certain conditions (belief and acceptance), then party B (Christian God) will perform a benefit (salvation) = contract.

And, you have missed the point of discussion completely: that irrespective of varying beliefs regarding salvation, ALL of the beliefs that form the basis of the contract are based completely upon hearsay.

You have made a positive statement about hearsay, now if you will, please prove your statement.
Apophenia is correct in saying that salvation is by grace and grace alone, salvation is a gift as defined in scripture, it really doesn't matter how you define salvation the original definition set forth in scripture is the reference mark by which one must hold.

And your evidence for this is.....GC??

I like it when atheists try to tell me why and how my faith is the way it is. It's so adorable.

(February 23, 2011 at 11:05 am)Watson Wrote: I like it when atheists try to tell me why and how my faith is the way it is. It's so adorable.

Right back atchya Watson

(February 22, 2011 at 2:17 pm)apophenia Wrote:

(February 22, 2011 at 10:59 am)Strongbad Wrote: In the Christian savior/saved contract, one party, the person who wishes to be saved, i.e. enter heaven, must agree to believe in the Christian God, and more specifically, must accept Jesus Christ as their “personal lord and savior”. The other party, God, agrees to perform the service of salvation, upon the death of the person in question, assuming said person had met the conditions spelled out (belief and acceptance).

I'm not sure this is an accurate representation of current Christian theology, at least not Protestantism. Salvation isn't "earned" but bestowed upon one by the Grace of God, freely given by him, according to the five Solas of reformation Christianity (specifically Sola gratia ("by grace alone")).

Bullshit, to earn salvation you need to accept a dead jewish zombie as your slave master. Good deeds are not enough, being ethical is not enough, if you deny the spirit you can not be saved - "But whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit will never be forgiven; he is guilty of an eternal sin" - Mark 3:29

Good thing the holy spirit is a completely bullshit fairy tale, oh wait, I've committed an unforgivable sin, guess I'll be having a crispy afterlife...

(February 23, 2011 at 10:12 am)Godschild Wrote: You have made a positive statement about hearsay, now if you will, please prove your statement.
Apophenia is correct in saying that salvation is by grace and grace alone, salvation is a gift as defined in scripture, it really doesn't matter how you define salvation the original definition set forth in scripture is the reference mark by which one must hold.

"Hearsay is information gathered by one person from another person concerning some event, condition, or thing of which the first person had no direct experience." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hearsay

In the case of the contract of salvation, Christians rely on information that was provided to them by other people, specifically, the Bible, or "scripture". It is a fact that the majority of the authors of the new testament are unknown, so not only is the information second-hand, it comes from unknown sources (which were written well after the supposed death of Jesus, in any event).

Regardless of which definition of salvation you subscribe to, the information upon which you base your definition is hearsay - it is not information which you personally know to be correct, but which you have assumed to be correct because someone else said so.

(February 23, 2011 at 11:05 am)Watson Wrote: I like it when atheists try to tell me why and how my faith is the way it is. It's so adorable.

Why don't you tell us then?

(February 23, 2011 at 10:12 am)Godschild Wrote: salvation is by grace and grace alone

Biblical support for this?