The Jackson's had a father who, six or seven years ago, admitted to beating his nine children with a strap. I'd hardly call that happy.

I go to school with a woman who is 31 and has 8 children, two of which are twins. Her oldest is 14. She always tells the class how unruly her kids are and how unhelpful her husband is. When she gets home from school, her house is in shreds because said husband does nothing to help and doesn't discipline his kids.


Two example in what must be thousands of large families where there are significant issues in the home.

(February 15, 2016 at 12:59 pm)TrueChristian Wrote:

(February 15, 2016 at 12:50 pm)Mermaid Wrote: The Jacksons and Kennedys were happy and joyful!? That's hilarious.

As children I believe the Kennedeys were, except for the unfortunate one who was shipped off to the institution .

Both children had unfortunate father figures, though by all accounts their mothers were dutiful, but wronged and kind-hearted women.

I suspect though, that they banded together and gave eachother comraedery in the face of their rather strict and non-nonsense fathers.

"Strict and no-nonsense" fathers? Is that what the kids are calling criminally abusive dirtbags these days?

(February 15, 2016 at 1:06 pm)Jenny A Wrote: @ TC

Has it occurred to you that the decline in family size has less to do with speculation about how happy the children will be and everything to do with economics?   In agrarian cultures without mechanization, children are a financial plus. For people living in modern economies,  they are a financial cost.

Or birth control/reproductive autonomy for women?

(February 15, 2016 at 1:09 pm)Excited Penguin Wrote: I don't want any children. Make of that what you will.

This is by far, the most intelligent thing you've said yet.

(February 15, 2016 at 1:12 pm)Mermaid Wrote:

(February 15, 2016 at 12:59 pm)TrueChristian Wrote: As children I believe the Kennedeys were, except for the unfortunate one who was shipped off to the institution .

Both children had unfortunate father figures, though by all accounts their mothers were dutiful, but wronged and kind-hearted women.

I suspect though, that they banded together and gave eachother comraedery in the face of their rather strict and non-nonsense fathers.

"Strict and no-nonsense" fathers? Is that what the kids are calling criminally abusive dirtbags these days?

Look, I admit Joe Jackson had a bit of a temper and bad attitude. But he helped make Michael a star!

Also, what did Joe Kennedy ever do that was bad? He helped make all his children quite successful (except for Rose I guess )

So you think beating children simply equates to having a "bit of a temper" and a "bad attitude"?

(February 15, 2016 at 1:23 pm)TrueChristian Wrote: Look, I admit Joe Jackson had a bit of a temper and bad attitude. But he helped make Michael a star!

Also, what did Joe Kennedy ever do that was bad? He helped make all his children quite successful (except for Rose I guess )

Yeah, and Michael turned out to be a super happy and well-adjusted guy!

More children = more free farm workers.  (Before that, a bigger tribe.)  Not as useful today, when the Earth is facing a population crisis.

I agree with some of the other respondents that bigger is not by any means necessarily better,
when it comes to families;

however, I will sincerely respond to the OP with some recent thoughts I had when reminiscing about my own childhood and upbringing, and family structure:

I am the eldest of three girls.  I am almost 40, my sisters are both now over 35.

We were not what you'd call a large household, per se,
but we were a multi-child, traditional, devout Christian family.

Also, the family was extended:  Both sets of grandparents, aunts, uncles & cousins were always around,
every holiday, birthday, or anniversary was cause for a family gathering and dinner,
and each household was involved in Church, as well;

plus we also kept contact with extended branches of the family, too:
my Dad's aunts, uncles, cousins, etc,
from up North;

and my Mom's aunts, uncles, and cousins, in the UK.

So, in that sense, we were a large family, entirely Baptist on both sides,
and well-entrenched in our heritage, as well.

Without going into too much detail, I will say our family is now in shambles.

Now, my parents are still married, and they love each other, are very devoted,
and have no regrets about their chosen  path, in life, of marriage and family;

....but given the state of our family, I can't say they're really happy, right now.

My middle sister is a narcissist and has shamelessly manipulated my mother to her advantage,
(and my mother allowed herself to be manipulated, due to her inclination to show favouritism)
and this has resulted in broken relationships between myself and my sisters,
and between my mother and myself;
...and no-one is happy.

My point:  

We were once a very close family, with all the machinery for happiness.

....and I miss what we once had,
even though it was certainly flawed,

and it is both the GOOD and the BAD of the former state,
that I wish to comment upon,
for the sake of this thread.

What we had was a very disciplined, very structured, very Christian (Baptist) household,
wherein strict standards were maintained, on many levels.

Mom ALWAYS kept the house immaculate, for starters;

family meals were at the table (with no TV)
and from an early age, my sisters and I were strictly disciplined and had chores and responsibilities.

There was absolutely no coarse language, no alcohol, no cigarettes, and no risque TV, movies,
no cartoons whose content was questionably "too magic",
and no rock or pop music allowed in the house;

Good grades were expected and encouraged;

Respect and good manners were enforced;

we were only allowed playmates my parents approved of,

we were not spoiled with every toy or latest trend or fad,

and because we were not wealthy, much of our clothes were hand-me-downs or from thrift-shops,
although we were certainly always kept very neat and clean.

We were heavily involved in our church, and never missed a Sunday...unless really sick;
and were expected to participate in church bible studies, missions, choirs, sunday school, church dinners, church picnics, youth groups and auxiliaries. 

We were also enrolled in a Christian version of Girl Guides,
AND Vacation Bible School during the summer...both of which I completely despised.



Nowadays, my mom still keeps her house very clean, of course,
but she is not maniacal about it like she was when we were kids;

alcohol is now permitted in the house, as is cursing
(but none of us smoke or do any pot or drugs);
but neither is out of control by any means;

and no one cares what's on TV or the radio,
as long as my young nephew isn't around;

and while we still occasionally eat together at table,
and still have Holiday meals,
Grace is no longer said, and we eat alone, or watching TV, just as often,
and there is no more big family dinners with the aunts, uncles, and cousins;
we don't have anything to do with them, anymore.


My parents still call themselves Christian, but have not attended Church in many, many years.

My parents are also aware I am Agnostic and Anti-Theism.



Yet, I cannot help but miss the STRUCTURE and the seeming unity we had, as a family, back then,
and I often dwell on the changes.



So, what I have concluded is this:

In our traditional, Christian family unit,

The Standards, the Values, the Structure, the Discipline, the Pride in our Heritage and the Identity that went with it
....these were the GOOD aspects of what we had.

Unfortunately, it came with BAD strings attached:
Repression, Religious Moralizing and "Control-Freak" mentality.

....and THAT was what inspired my rebellion and rage, as I got older.


Same with Church:

There were GOOD aspects of the Church that I still miss, today:

The Sense of Community, the Structure, the Culture (some incidental History, Language, Music, Literacy, Art);

...but the BAD strings attached to that, was the Judgmental attitude, the Sanctimoniousness, the Pretense,
the Competition, and the dangerous perpetuation of the  "Chosen People" delusion

...and of course, the lies of Theism, itself.

(February 15, 2016 at 1:29 pm)drfuzzy Wrote: More children = more free farm workers.  (Before that, a bigger tribe.)  Not as useful today, when the Earth is facing a population crisis.

More children = bigger welfare checks...