Have to hand it to the Muslims, though. Since the Q'ran cannot be changed, the way they get round verses that conflict with each other or are just not particularly 'holy', they claim that either the Prophet or the scribes were being influenced by Satan. Clever clogs.

Boru

(February 23, 2016 at 6:50 pm)MrNoMorePropaganda Wrote:

(February 23, 2016 at 6:14 pm)Wyrd of Gawd Wrote: Didn't an English guy format the Koran into numbered verses?

I have no idea. What I do know is that the text of the Quran was only standardized in Cairo in Egypt in 1936. Abdullah Yusu Ali handily divides the Surahs into sub-sections which is nice, but I have no evidence to suggest that it was him. Somebody would have had to keep a record of Quran 'verses' early on since Muhammad was randomly spewing them over the course of twenty-three years. Interesting to note is that the Quran is not in chronological order like the Bible.

In the Hadith there is a story about a certain scribe colluding with Muhammad in order to make the revelation better. The implication being, that the words of Abdullah Ibn Sad Ibn Abi Sarh, along with those of Muhammad, are found in the Quran. Even if we ignore the Hadith completely, it's not unreasonable to assume that Muhammad did have a scribe.

Uthman's committee wrote the Koran.  The question remains who revised it to include numbered verses which even the most fanatic muslim cites today?  One thing is for sure and that is it wasn't Mohammed's scribe.

(February 23, 2016 at 6:40 pm)BrianSoddingBoru4 Wrote: I hardly think that'll happen.  In fact, according to a lot of Muslims, if you're reading a translation of the Q'ran, you aren't really reading the Q'ran - it can only be properly read in Arabic.  Since I have neither the time nor the inclination to learn Arabic (although I own a beautiful copy written in that language - gift from a friend), I'll have to muddle through with my English translation, which I doubt very much is going to stop Ahmed in Yemen from reading his.

Boru

So, in other words, Allah is creating obstacles that prevent people from acquiring the truth? It just so happens that Muhammad, being an Arab, spoke the right language. I don't like that my reading is invalid simply because I didn't have the good fortune of being an Arab. Doesn't make Allah seem very competent if only people who can understand classical Arabic can appreciate the Quran.

(February 23, 2016 at 7:52 pm)Wyrd of Gawd Wrote: Uthman's committee wrote the Koran.  The question remains who revised it to include numbered verses which even the most fanatic muslim cites today?  One thing is for sure and that is it wasn't Mohammed's scribe.

Completely forgot about Uthman, thanks! Yeah I've heard that story. Uthman sounds like a noob. Probably one of the reasons many people are Quranists; it would be inconvenient to believe Uthman went around burning Qurans.

I doubt many Muslims read the Quran. I mean, actually read it right through. I bet they cherry pick it and read their favourite parts.

For example, the story starts by describing what an absolute complete evil bastard god is. It describes how he deliberately manipulates people into non-belief of him, ready to justify doing whatever crap he feels like to them during their life, and eventually sending them to hell.

But then again, I don't know how big Muslims are with the whole "benevolence" thing. Maybe they are fine with worshiping an evil being.

(February 24, 2016 at 4:03 am)robvalue Wrote: I doubt many Muslims read the Quran. I mean, actually read it right through. I bet they cherry pick it and read their favourite parts.

For example, the story starts by describing what an absolute complete evil bastard god is. It describes how he deliberately manipulates people into non-belief of him, ready to justify doing whatever crap he feels like to them during their life, and eventually sending them to hell.

But then again, I don't know how big Muslims are with the whole "benevolence" thing. Maybe they are fine with worshiping an evil being.

Allah gets pissed if you ask too many questions about religion.

I do understand Allah's position. I mean, if I knew everything, I'd be really scared about people asking questions too.

Quote:MrNoMorePropagandaBecause

I was curious to see what I would find. Random I know. I ended up in Surah Al Hajj (number 22), and a couple of Iyah caught my eye.

Quran 22:65 "Seest thou not that Allah has made subject to you (men) all that is on the earth, and the ships that sail through the sea by His Command? He withholds the sky (rain) from failing on the earth except by His leave: for Allah is Most Kind and Most Merciful to man."

There is no men in the original verse.
Translating it word by word to you:
--------------------
أَلَمْ
didn't
تَرَ
You see
أَنَّ اللَّهَ
That God
سَخَّرَ لَكُمْ
Made subject into you

مَا فِي الْأَرْضِ
What is in earth

 وَالْفُلْكَ تَجْرِي
And ships run

فِي الْبَحْرِ بِأَمْرِهِ
in the sea by his command

وَيُمْسِكُ السَّمَاءَ أَنْ تَقَعَ عَلَى الْأَرْضِ
And holds heaven from falling on earth

إِلَّا بِإِذْنِهِ ۗ
Except with his permission

إِنَّ اللَّهَ بِالنَّاسِ لَرَءُوفٌ رَحِيم
That is, God is graceful and merciful towards people.

----------------------
But it's that tone, that tries to embed sexism in the translation of the Quran, but with that I think we're sure that the word "men" which came between brackets doesn't exist in the verse.

About natural diisasters, well, I'm pretty much sure that the number of people dying annually from car accidents in Saudi Arabia exceds that of flood victims, why didn't car companies stop building cars, and humanity stop using cars, because it leads to the death of innocent children, and underage drivers who drive without license under the influence of drugs? I don't hear anybody whine about that.

Wars too make the number of flood victims look very little.
It's the fault of humanity. In a nationalistic world, people cannot leave their countries easily; even if their countries were infested by natural disastors. God is exposing evil through this: humans should look in the mirror, and remember that they're closing the doors of their warm, comfort homes (which has a lot of empty rooms), in the face of those in need, until their hearts becamse like stone or maybe harder.

Allah says it loud and clear in here:
( Sura 6 Verse 165 )   And it is He who has made you successors upon the earth and has raised some of you above others in degrees [of rank] that He may try you through what He has given you. Indeed, your Lord is swift in penalty; but indeed, He is Forgiving and Merciful.

A trial that many fail in. That's why you enjoy the luxuries , while the Bangles get drowned; instead of blaming God, we should fight nationalism and open the borders to house our hurt brethren. But no, immigration laws are forced, flags are carried and national anthems are sung, the trial of God is so wise; it shows the other side of the moon.

Allah, the all-knowing, could tell people how to design better cars, or guide those in charge of the car manufacturers to be more sincere. It'll very simple for Allah. Cars can be extremely useful to Da'i as they enable the Final Message to spread quicker than by camel. Makes you wonder why Allah didn't give the Sahabah the tools necessary to make motor vehicles. The people needed to receive the truth, so why not give the Ummah the cars as a supreme sign from Allah? Instead, we have to grapple with numerology and odd things like that to prove the Quran.

Many of the conflicts happened because Allah did not prevent the Injeel and Torah from becoming corrupted. If Jews and Christians had the same scriptures as the Ummah then they would be able to have more agreements with the Ummah. People view the Quran with suspicion (even though the Old Testament is worse) because it's foreign to them. It's different because Allah allowed it to be different.

If there was no need to have the Quran in the first place, millions of deaths could have been prevented. It's very sad that Allah is incompetent like this. Surely it's insulting to say to the Jews and Christian who were alive before Muhammed: You were not ready for the final message. What I'm trying to say is that many conflicts came about of decisions made by Allah. There was nothing supernatural preventing the corruption of previous texts.

Allah could even give us the technology to be able to move around in and explore the remaining 100% of the universe he made "for us".