(April 11, 2016 at 3:13 pm)abaris Wrote:

(April 11, 2016 at 2:51 pm)Godschild Wrote: Hitler became a German citizen by being appointed to a position in Brunswick by the Nazi party, Hitler refused to become a citizen by standing in line like all others did. Hitler was an egomaniac from the start. Like everything else be bullied his way in.

In short, he was naturalized in 1932, after being stateless for almost a decade. He left Austria in 1913, fought in a Bavarian regiment and was on an Austrian watchlist after founding the NSDAP.

But all of this doesn't really matter in this context. What matters is his religiosity. I always argue that it is as stupid to call him an atheist as it is to call him a christian, just because he didn't leave the Catholic church till his death. His private conversations, recorded by Henry Picker, show he wasn't an atheist. His writings do too. He had some kind of spirituality, endlessly talking about providence.

 He may not have been an atheist, because he was an evil man doesn't make him an atheist but, it pretty much eliminates him being a Christian.

GC

(April 11, 2016 at 7:58 pm)Godschild Wrote:  He may not have been an atheist, because he was an evil man doesn't make him an atheist but, it pretty much eliminates him being a Christian.

GC

Yeah, but no rest for the wicked. Look up Franz Stangl.

(April 11, 2016 at 3:50 pm)drfuzzy Wrote:

(April 11, 2016 at 3:00 pm)Godschild Wrote: I don't worship the Bible, I worship God and you know squat about the Bible. All you care about is your hatred for God and His people. It's obvious what the Bible teaches and the reasonable part of society you don't hold with, you would rather try and run people down than hold any kind of honor for yourself or others.

GC

You can't hate something that doesn't exist.  I have a lot of xtian friends who do not try to preach at me, and live their lives quietly.  I don't hate them either.  The rest of your statement is just judgmental character assassination of someone you've never met - which is the type of behavior that I expect of most of the theists here.  They've judged me just by coming to this forum, so I get to make fun of the delusion that enslaved me for over 40 years.

 I know for a fact God exists, why didn't you find this out in your 40 years in the church. I'm not preaching at you, you were the one who jumped in on this conversation. I'm calling it like I see it. As far as coming to this forums to judge you, I've been here much longer than you have.

GC

(April 11, 2016 at 8:06 pm)Godschild Wrote:  I know for a fact God exists, why didn't you find this out in your 40 years in the church. I'm not preaching at you, you were the one who jumped in on this conversation. I'm calling it like I see it. As far as coming to this forums to judge you, I've been here much longer than you have.

GC

Fact is, you're judging everyone not conforming to your notion of god. And that's got nothing to do with being here longer. Drippy does that too, and I always name you as a first class advertisment for atheism, since both of you try to advertise a despicable god. Business as usual with evangelicals and bible literalists, I would say.

And no, I'm not judging every christian by your sorry display. Only on an individual level, since there are quite a number of other theists not falling into that category.

(April 11, 2016 at 7:58 pm)Godschild Wrote:

(April 11, 2016 at 3:13 pm)abaris Wrote: In short, he was naturalized in 1932, after being stateless for almost a decade. He left Austria in 1913, fought in a Bavarian regiment and was on an Austrian watchlist after founding the NSDAP.

But all of this doesn't really matter in this context. What matters is his religiosity. I always argue that it is as stupid to call him an atheist as it is to call him a christian, just because he didn't leave the Catholic church till his death. His private conversations, recorded by Henry Picker, show he wasn't an atheist. His writings do too. He had some kind of spirituality, endlessly talking about providence.

 He may not have been an atheist, because he was an evil man doesn't make him an atheist but, it pretty much eliminates him being a Christian.

GC

Tell that shit to Cardinal Torquemada.

(April 11, 2016 at 7:58 pm)Godschild Wrote: He may not have been an atheist, because he was an evil man doesn't make him an atheist but, it pretty much eliminates him being a Christian.

Vlad the Impaler to all that.

(April 11, 2016 at 8:06 pm)Godschild Wrote:

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(April 11, 2016 at 3:50 pm)drfuzzy Wrote: You can't hate something that doesn't exist.  I have a lot of xtian friends who do not try to preach at me, and live their lives quietly.  I don't hate them either.  The rest of your statement is just judgmental character assassination of someone you've never met - which is the type of behavior that I expect of most of the theists here.  They've judged me just by coming to this forum, so I get to make fun of the delusion that enslaved me for over 40 years.

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Quote: I know for a fact God exists, why didn't you find this out in your 40 years in the church. I'm not preaching at you, you were the one who jumped in on this conversation. I'm calling it like I see it. As far as coming to this forums to judge you, I've been here much longer than you have.

GC

Where is God right now?

Haven't read through the entire thread but am I correct in assuming this is a "no true Scotsman" fallacy thread?

Also why point out Hitler when you have the Pagan persecutions, Crusades, Spanish Inquisition, Witch burning... there's so much history of crap done in christ's name. What's it matter if one really evil bastard was or wasn't? He was a theist. History is filled with blood in the name of theism.

(April 11, 2016 at 9:54 pm)Goosebump Wrote: Haven't read through the entire thread but am I correct in assuming this is a "no true Scotsman" fallacy thread?

Also why point out Hitler when you have the Pagan persecutions, Crusades, Spanish Inquisition, Witch burning... there's so much history of crap done in christ's name. What's it matter if one really evil bastard was or wasn't? He was a theist. History is filled with blood in the name of theism.

NTS you betcha. The astounding proposition that none of them were True Christians™, despite their utterly solid belief in their own righteousness (sound familiar?), is probably the most amazing part of the evangelical Christian mindset, to me.

(April 11, 2016 at 4:55 pm)Redbeard The Pink Wrote:

(April 11, 2016 at 2:51 pm)Godschild Wrote: Austria was a sovereign nation then, doesn't matter if it was once part of a larger country loosely organized.


Hitler became a German citizen by being appointed to a position in Brunswick by the Nazi party, Hitler refused to become a citizen by standing in line like all others did. Hitler was an egomaniac from the start. Like everything else be bullied his way in.

So you admit he was German. Thank you.

I never said he wasn't a German citizen, he was an Austrian who became a German citizen.

RTP Wrote:Anyway, it's beside the point. The point is that he was Catholic, which means he was a Christian.

That makes as much sense as, you are an atheist so your a scumbag. You know nothing about what it takes to be a Christian. 

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It's not my problem, the problem belongs to non- believers like yourself. It says if a person pretends to be a Christian and claims to do work that wasn't God's work then they will wind up in hell.

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RTP Wrote:
The "problem" we're talking about here is the one you'r having with the "No True Scotsman" fallacy. Stop trying to change the subject.

"No True Scotsman" doesn't apply here, Hitler doesn't come close to being a Christian and if you knew anything about Christianity you would know this, you're not qualified to call "No True Scotsman."

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You need to prove that each denomination has a different view as to what it takes to be a Christian. The great majority believe in grace through acceptance of Christ into one's life.

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RTP Wrote:You're joking, right? If those denominations didn't have differing opinions on what it takes to be a Christian, why are there different denominations in the first place? I was a Christian for over 20 years, and I know this statement isn't true. Different denominations have all kinds of different ideas about exactly what you must/mustn't do in order to be saved/damned.

No, I'm not joking and if you had been a Christian you would know this. The difference isn't in becoming a Christian, differences come in keeping ones salvation, in baptism, end time prophesy, food, days of worship and ect. Nearly every Christian denomination believes a person is saved by grace upon acceptance of who Christ is. If you were truly a Christian then you will come back to Christ, this is the teaching of the scriptures, if you do not then you were never a Christian. Scriptures also say if you were a Christian and now reject and deny God you can never come back to salvation, take your choice. See I can take the scriptures and give two different ideas of salvation both could be true but, only if one has differing views of salvation. Neither of these have anything to do with becoming a Christian, but they both have something to do with confirming that one is actually a Christian.

RTP Wrote:How exactly does one determine whether somebody has "accepted Christ" into their lives? The Bible says that all who believe in their hearts and confess with their mouths that Christ is Lord will be saved, does it not? Is this sufficient for salvation according to your view?

Yes I agree and yes this is sufficient as long as the rest of ones life shows they know what they believe, scripture also says that we (Christians) will know them by their fruit. Those who do not believe or reject God can not determine who's a Christian and who's not, this is also supported by scripture. You say how? Because all these references in scriptures are to Christians alone, never to those who are not Christians. 

RTP Wrote:If it is, and Hitler professed sincere beliefs in God, Jesus, and the Catholic Church, how exactly is it you claim to know he wasn't really Christian? How do you know he didn't sincerely accept Christ, and if he did, then why wouldn't God forgive his wrongdoings and accept him into Heaven?

I answered this question in my response. You must have been a former Catholic, the Bible says nothing about believing in the Catholic Church, it's hierarchy has many problems and unfortunately it trickles down. Not saying Catholics aren't saved so let's not go down that road.
Hitler bore no fruit as a Christian would, murders, liars and ect. which Hitler was want be in heaven, God will only forgive those who truly repent and Hitler couldn't have, we know he enjoyed what he did, no remorse at all. 

RTP Wrote:According to your model, a kind, compassionate person who doesn't believe in God will go to Hell, but a person who rapes a baby a day and then accepts Christ on his deathbed will go to Heaven. Based on that very logic, there is no reason to believe that Hitler wouldn't have been admitted to Heaven.

Do you really believe Hitler could be in heaven, that is if you can assume heavens real. Salvation has nothing to do with being a good person, that's works (which further makes me believe you were a Catholic) works can't save you the NT scriptures shows this over and over. Works show that one is doing the will of God, not just being compassionate. Salvation comes through one admitting they are sinners who need God's salvation and then live a life of appreciation in obedience to God to show their salvation is the real thing. People will stray I know I have before, but they will return before they die. Your idea of a baby raper is a bit over board, but I will say that bad people who truly accept Jesus on their deathbed will go to heaven, only God will know about these people.

RTP Wrote:If he sincerely believed in Jesus (like he said he did) and really did strive toward God's will with some or all of his being, why wouldn't God forgive him for the Holocaust and accept him into Heaven as a Christian? Are you saying that Hitler's sins are too great for your god to forgive?

I'm saying Hitler made his sins so great he would not have sought forgiveness, again we know what he did pleased him, he thought he was correct in what he did, he wasn't even by man's standards. God can forgive any sin, except for the blasphemy of the Holy Spirit, but only when one humbles themselves before Him in repentance, Hitler was way to egotistical for such humility. 

RTP Wrote:If so, that's in direct contention with Christian doctrine. Are you saying that he was lying about being a Christian just so he could come to power in Germany?

I'm saying he used Christianity for his own gain, to get many in Germany on his side. To use Christianity for ones own gain is a real sign that a person is most likely not a Christian. Salvation isn't something you use for self gain, it is a life dedicated to allow God to bring gain to Himself. If we use salvation to gain then we are not doing God's will, in actuality one would be falling for Satan's deception. 

RTP Wrote: How would you know that he didn't really believe? How do you know he wasn't just a severely misguided Christian? You might say that a Christian would never commit the warlike acts or atrocities that he did, but you're forgetting a significant portion of the Old Testament if you say that. Plenty of sincere men of god were commanded to slaughter loads of people for various reasons. Samson, for example, is said to have personally murdered, like, all of the Philistines, and he's just the tip of the iceberg. There's a lot of stuff about laying waste to whole cities, dashing their babies on the rocks, and keeping the virgin girls for yourselves. Your god is a war-god, bro.

Hitler made his own rules, we know this as fact. Misguided to murder millions, cause a war that killed more people in the world than any other war. No he was a crazy uncaring person who enjoyed what he did.
Hitler wasn't commanded by God to kill all those people, he did it out of his own ego to dominate the world, one thing he forgot God was in control another sign he wasn't a Christian.
God commanded those acts in the OT for reasons that I have asked God to explain to me because I couldn't understand, He did and no I want explain it to you because you wouldn't understand it.
Now for the "dashing of babies on rocks" shows me you do not know much about the Bible, God did not command that. It's a Psalm and and in that psalm that was a cures spouted by a man. You should really do your homework about the scriptures instead of repeating what others say. God has never been a war God, you do not understand what God was doing so you condemn Him because you of your lack of understanding, your desire to run God down.

RTP Wrote:An interesting side note: how much of the stuff have you read about the captivity in Babylon? I think the passages I'm referencing come from Isaiah, but it talks about how the people will be stripped of their freedom and clothes, and how they'll have their heads shaved, be made to work, be made to march around in lines...the whole thing is very Holocaust-like in the imagery it presents. Given that Christians like to interpret random Bible passages as being predictions from the future (with some prophecies even being fulfilled multiple times), how do you know these passages aren't also a prophecy about the Holocaust? How do you know that your god wasn't using the Christian Nazis in Germany to punish is wayward "chosen people" the same way he did with Babylon? He does have a track record for that, after all (according to the Bible, anyway...I'm not saying I endorse the "history" presented there). If that were the case, then Hitler may have actually been doing God's will. You don't know.

No Biblical scholars have said the Holocaust was a prophecy and you want find it as a prophecy in the scriptures, God's last punishment on the Jewish people was to take their land away from them until it was restored in 1948. 

RTP Wrote:Furthermore, even if I granted that Hitler was pretending to be Christian just to gain power in Germany so he could do all the things he did without being questioned, is that argument really helping Christianity?

Nearly everyone in the world knows Hitler wasn't a Christian, I actually had never heard such a thing until I came to this forum. People despise what Hitler did that no one pays much attention to him or what he believed, this subject gets more attention here than probably all the rest of the world or another atheist forum.

RTP Wrote:"Hey, Hitler! You can't be the Fuhrer of Germany because you're an atheist/satanist/whatever, and German is a nation of Christians. The only way to get the Germans to unquestioningly commit the mass murder, the torture, the bombings, the racial and social injustice, and the wishes of our dark Lord Satan is to pretend to be Christian!"

I didn't say Hitler was an atheist or satanist, he was an evolutionist, his wanting to create a superior race proves that. The German people were so afraid of Hitler and his cronies they wouldn't speak out against him. He produced this fear long before the Holocaust, the Germans were just as afraid of Hitler as were his enemies.